D&D 5E Paladin: Why Are They Often Considered Highly Powerful?

[Ancalagon]

I play a paladin in a group with a cleric, monk, and rogue/warlock where we are currently level 6. I find that the paladin is a strong class as in the combat pillar they fill a lot of roles. Tank, damage and support/healing. This is somewhat offset by how short ranged everything I do is. Smites have to be melee, aura range is small, lay on hand and cure wounds are both touch range. Because of this I feel that compared to the fighter the paladin is strong in what they do but less versatile.

In a lot of my combat encounters I feel like I either dominate or am useless. In prolonged melee fights I thrive as I'm the only PC built to withstand a lot of damage. But against fast skirmisher enemies or enemies that start at long range I'm not contributing much.

The range issue certainly is a balancing factor... although the fact that heavy armor doesn't slow you down in 5e helps, along with misty steps

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

The range issue certainly is a balancing factor... although the fact that heavy armor doesn't slow you down in 5e helps, along with misty steps

I had forgotten that the other oaths got access to misty step as I play an oath of devotion paladin.

But this post reminded me that I do have the steed from Find Steed which also greatly helps with movement issues. While not applicable in all situations (it's not worth the hassle in a dungeon) it's still very powerful.

 

[auburn2]

The range issue certainly is a balancing factor... although the fact that heavy armor doesn't slow you down in 5e helps, along with misty steps

Misty step does help, but it isn't available until level 5 and there is a high cost to using it at low levels because you have very limited slots.

A few other things to consider in this discussion:

1. The fighter gets a 3rd attack at 11th level and this is a pretty big deal when combined with GWM or other fighter abilities. He gets a 4th attack at 20th level, but that is not that great (and neither is the Vegence Paldin's capstone IMO). The 3 attacks per round means that combined with action surge a fighter can do a crap load of damage if he goes nova in round one - 6 attacks in one round plus 5d10 battlemaster dice (and their effects) or 10% critical. This will usually be more damage than a Paladin can deal in round 1. A 11th level battlemaster with a greatsword going nova that hits with all 6 attacks and no criticals is going to do 12d6+5d10 (81.5 average including reroll 1/2) vs for a Paladin 4d6+8d8 (59.7 avg including rerolls). After a short rest the battlemaster can do it again. I get it that a Paladin can wait for a critical to use his biggest smite, but then again if you are fighting someone that you need to go Nova on you usually can't afford to wait for a critical.

2. If you roll your abilities you are at the mercy of the dice, but on a point buy the Paladin needs to buy charisma and needs to use feats maxing it if he wants that +5 aura. By comparison the fighter will have a a better combination of strength/dexterity/constitution to start with and will be able to take more martial feats. This will mean better to hit rolls, slightly better base damage and/or more hit points. It also means all else being equal the fighter will be better at athletics (or acrobatics) which are used in almost every battle. The fighter will spend less time on the ground or restrained.

 

[werecorpse]

Misty step does help, but it isn't available until level 5 and there is a high cost to using it at low levels because you have very limited slots.

A few other things to consider in this discussion:

1. The fighter gets a 3rd attack at 11th level and this is a pretty big deal when combined with GWM or other fighter abilities. He gets a 4th attack at 20th level, but that is not that great (and neither is the Vegence Paldin's capstone IMO). The 3 attacks per round means that combined with action surge a fighter can do a crap load of damage if he goes nova in round one - 6 attacks in one round plus 5d10 battlemaster dice (and their effects) or 10% critical. This will usually be more damage than a Paladin can deal in round 1. A 11th level battlemaster with a greatsword going nova that hits with all 6 attacks and no criticals is going to do 12d6+5d10 (81.5 average including reroll 1/2) vs for a Paladin 4d6+8d8 (59.7 avg including rerolls). After a short rest the battlemaster can do it again. I get it that a Paladin can wait for a critical to use his biggest smite, but then again if you are fighting someone that you need to go Nova on you usually can't afford to wait for a critical.

2. If you roll your abilities you are at the mercy of the dice, but on a point buy the Paladin needs to buy charisma and needs to use feats maxing it if he wants that +5 aura. By comparison the fighter will have a a better combination of strength/dexterity/constitution to start with and will be able to take more martial feats. This will mean better to hit rolls, slightly better base damage and/or more hit points. It also means all else being equal the fighter will be better at athletics (or acrobatics) which are used in almost every battle. The fighter will spend less time on the ground or restrained.

I don't think that Paladins are overpowered at levels 1-4. At those levels they are comparable with fighters, barbarians and Rangers - their class peers.

At 5th level they start to pull away. At that level fighters get multi attack and their second wind increases by 1hp, Paladins get multiattack, an extra 5hp lay on hands a first level spell and two second level spells.

Just looking at spellcasting Paladins get to have in memory about double the spells an eldritch knight or ranger does. Plus those two "warrior" classes can change 1 spell when they level up, a Paladin changes their spells each long rest Paladins are likely to have more spells in memory than a Sorcerer, a similar number to a bard or wizard. In fact the only class with more is the cleric.

As for the point about the third attack at level 11. That was when I thought fighters would pass Paladins but they don't because Paladins get improved divine smite. So even if they haven't taken polearm master or sentinel or hasted themselves to get extra attacks they get an extra d8 for each of their two attacks. That balances the third attack. When a paladin crits with a longsword at this level it does 4d8+stat before laying down any extra smite damage (compare this side effect to the 9th level barbarian power "savage critical" where the barbarian gets to do 1 extra dice). So just on average dice without rerolls (I'm not sure where they are from) the fighter doing 12d6+5d10 = 69.5 the paladin 4d6+10d8=59. In round 2 the fighter does 6d6 for 21 the paladin 4d6+2d8 (without smiting) for 23, if he smites he can throw in an extra say 6d8 for another 27.

And Greatsword is optimal for the fighter, the paladin prefers either a polearm with polearm master so he gets to do an extra 1d4+1d8 +Str v the fighters 1d4 +Str or longsword where his divine smite d8 make up a bigger portion of the damage.

As for your second point it's not that hard with point buy to get a decent paladin with Str, con and Cha. They don't need to worry about Dex because heavy armour and Cha saves. There are some examples up thread.

 

[Ancalagon]

I think that the 3rd attack at level 11 does indeed allow the fighters to catch up a bit (fully? I am uncertain, in part because that free 1d8 per hit the paladin gets at level 11). But how much of the game is spent at level 11? The "sweet spot" is mostly in the level 5-10 range so...

 

[auburn2]

I agree with you about spells and eldritch knight is behind the Paladin (and a battlemaser, champion or any barbarian) when it comes to melee.

I don't think the extra 2d8 balances the third attack (and thanks for pointing it out I neglected it in my numbers). Obviously it will vary by build but the fighter gets a full extra attack including all the dice and the strength/dexterity bonus plus the chance to critical and gets that every single round without using a bonus action.

The problem with pole arm master is it cuts into a feat which are already in short supply for a Paladin since he wants to be maxing Cha (and if you want GWM that is another feat). The 11th level Paladin only has 2 feats (or 3 if he is variant human). So if you are going this route and if you max strength to start with you will need to keep Charisma at 16 to keep up with the fighter in dpr without smite.

A Paladin can have good strength and constitution but he will never match a comparatively built strength-based fighter with point buy without using smite. The extra 1d8 is 4.5 average on all attacks at llth level, but if a fighter takes strength instead of charisma or feats he is doing an additional +2 strength damage every hit once he gets it to 20 and at llth level getting more attacks. Using your comparison above for an 11th level variant human fighter with pole arm master vs Paladin with pole arm master and the rest of feats going to strength/charisma the 16str Paladin is doing 2d10+1d4+3d8+9=36 avg, the 20str fighter is doing 3d10+1d4+20=39 avg. The fighter also has 11 more hps due to a higher constitution.

 

[werecorpse]

So they each do 33 damage as a standard. Then the fighter action surges and does 66(+25) for 91. The paladin recklessly burns 3 3rd level slots for +54 total 87. I agree the fighter using all their abilities in one round does beat the paladin, by 4

Next round the fighter does 33 the paladin burns 3x2nd doing +38.5 : paladin wins by 38

And the paladin doesn't care if the fighters got an extra 11 hit points. He can cure 55hp vs self cure 16.

But also note the paladin has +3 to all saves, maybe takes half damage from spells and can't be frightened. So maybe a fighter can nearly match the paladin in combat. The paladin has a whole bucket of other fruit compared to the fighters reroll 1 save. He far surpasses the fighter in other ways - that is the issue.

 

[Oofta]

So they each do 33 damage as a standard. Then the fighter action surges and does 66(+25) for 91. The paladin recklessly burns 3 3rd level slots for +54 total 87. I agree the fighter using all their abilities in one round does beat the paladin, by 4

Next round the fighter does 33 the paladin burns 3x2nd doing +38.5 : paladin wins by 38

And the paladin doesn't care if the fighters got an extra 11 hit points. He can cure 55hp vs self cure 16.

But also note the paladin has +3 to all saves, maybe takes half damage from spells and can't be frightened. So maybe a fighter can nearly match the paladin in combat. The paladin has a whole bucket of other fruit compared to the fighters reroll 1 save. He far surpasses the fighter in other ways - that is the issue.

Which all depends on a lot of assumptions. Like they have the same number of feats, the same strength, the same constitution. The paladin only gets that +3 to saves because they've made other choices in addition to having fewer feats and ASIs.

There may well be a big difference in your game, it's not universal.

 

[Mistwell]

What do you guys think of a Dex based Paladin?

A multi-classed Hexblade Paladin (1 to 3 levels of Warlock)?

 

[Ancalagon]

A multi-classed Hexblade Paladin (1 to 3 levels of Warlock)?

I think that the solo class hexblade is a fun but slightly underwhelming character. A few levels of fighter can really help it, and it multicasses really well with the college of swords.

A few levels of hexblade to boost the paladin feels outright broken. It reduces your ability dependence, and you gain great range firepower, fixing the two weaknesses of the class. On top of that you gain the shield spell. Now it does delay access to paladin aura, but sheesh...