D&D 5E The Problem With At Will Attack Granting

[mellored]

That's really not the way you want to go with that comparison. Time Stop is the spell that grants actions without Concentration.

You want to come up with a mechanic that's as cost prohibitive as Concentration.

if you mean a limit to how many buffs a warlord can put out at once, then yes. I already assumed that. Otherwise concentration doesn't "cost" anything. You can use it as much as you want, but just 1 at a time.

The warlord would be using their actions, and it would only last 1 round (or 1 roll). She couldn't layer on greater invisibility (advantage) and haste (extra attack) at the same time, and if you stun, immobilize, or knock the warlord out, her buffs end.

 

[TwoSix]

A question for all. How much did the strength of the lazy warlord mechanics in 4e factor into your like of the class?

Quite a bit, for me. I played a bravura warlord in 4e, but my next character was going to be a warlord|wizard, because I liked the lazylord concept that much.

 

[mellored]

Sorcerers don't heal either plus you will want other abilities.

divine souls can heal.
Also, warlords don't cast cone of cold, mass suggestion, or wish. So it's not like they are replacing sorcerers.

 

[mellored]

A question for all. How much did the strength of the lazy warlord mechanics in 4e factor into your like of the class?

IMO, enough to make lazy-lord the base class. Medium armour, simple weapons, d8 hit dice. Increase weapon damage by 1d8 at level 8 and 2d8 at level 14. (Maybe +int to damage instead of d8).
Same as cleric, minus the shield.

Then make the warlord a sub-class who gets extra damage. Similar to the war cleric, but not as sucky.
I.e.
Warlord
Level 1: proficency in martial melee weapons and heavy armor.
Level 6: when you use your action to perform a tactical maneuver, you can also make a single melee attack.

Martyr
Level 1: proficient in shields. You can use your reaction to push an ally out of the way and become the target of the attack.
Level 6: when you use your level 3 ability, you gain a few THP.

Watchman
Level 1: you cannot be surprised. Gain a bonus to initiative.
Level 6: your allies cannot be surprised. Allies gain a bonus to initiative.

Etc...

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

A question for all. How much did the strength of the lazy warlord mechanics in 4e factor into your like of the class?

Honestly, the more is see threads about the mechanical X,Y,Z of the warlord, most of them about how to port features from 4e to 5e, the more I tell myself that I think it would be best to keep the idea of a martial support class, but dont want the features that were given to such class in 4e in the 5e version. Something like they did with the sorcerers, which are different in mechanics and thematic in 5e. I think a martial support class should use mechanics that are left mostly unused by the player part of the game but are already in the system.

Xanathar's new classes and feats show us some new mechanics a class could emulate without magic: Catnap spell, spending HD on bonus action, super-advantage, give up advantage for extra attack etc.
So, instead of a mere translation from 4e to 5e, why not create a class that do something no other class can do? Why try to fit a new class in the mold of bard or cleric when they can do something different but still as useful as bardic inspiration or cleric heal?
Some quick ideas:
- Mess with short/rest long rest power recovery (shortens rest, recuperate features faster, dont expend ressource on a miss as a reaction etc)
- Ally within 30 can sacrifice advantage to let an ally within range do a single attack
- Help action give super-advantage (ala Elven accuracy feat), Help can target more than one ally at higher levels
- Recover exhaustion faster, recuperate X HD per short rest, party can transfer HD from one to another
- Bonus Action let an ally spend HD
- Concentration stances x/short rest: refluff bless, refluff sanctuary, refluff calm emotion, refluff crusader mantle etc

 

[mellored]

So, instead of a mere translation from 4e to 5e, why not create a class that do something no other class can do? Why try to fit a new class in the mold of bard or cleric when they can do something different but still as useful as bardic inspiration or cleric heal?

I agree. And good ideas.

However, bards and clerics give us a balance point. So it's still useful to see what they can do. If a level 5 bless spamming cleric is worth 9 damage a round, then...

1d8+4+1d6, granting super advantage would add...
4 damage.

So granting 2 attacks super advantage would be on par with bless's 1d4 to 3 people. Or perhaps 1 super advantage, and 1 reroll.
Also considering clerics also have guidance... something like...

Level 1: you can allow someone to spend a hit die. You can do this a number of times equal to your class level per long rest.

Level 2: when you take the help action, the target can roll 3 d20s instead of 2.

Level 5: As a reaction when someone misses an attack, you can let them reroll the attack.

Level 8: you gain +int to weapon damage.

Level 11: you gain an extra reaction.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I agree. And good ideas.

However, bards and clerics give us a balance point. So it's still useful to see what they can do. If a level 5 bless spamming cleric is worth 9 damage a round, then...

1d8+4+1d6, granting super advantage would add...
4 damage.

So granting 2 attacks super advantage would be on par with bless's 1d4 to 3 people. Or perhaps 1 super advantage, and 1 reroll.
Also considering clerics also have guidance... something like...

Level 1: you can allow someone to spend a hit die. You can do this a number of times equal to your class level per long rest.

Level 2: when you take the help action, the target can roll 3 d20s instead of 2.

Level 5: As a reaction when someone misses an attack, you can let them reroll the attack.

Level 8: you gain +int to weapon damage.

Level 11: you gain an extra reaction.

Quite good, I like it.
There's one thing tho, and it may sound counter-intuitive: I dont think all the ''warlords'' (this is one of the reason I dont like the name) features needs to be combat-focused. I think that a martial support class should be able to help as well in combat than out of it. I even think warlord should feature abilities that remove or diminish the need to enter combat. Something like setting ambush, avoiding encounters, using cha/int/wis skills in combat instead of fighting rolls. This is why I liked the idea that someone said on one warlord thread or another, that the ''spell-less ranger'' archetype could be created in a warlord class quite easily.

It may seems weird, but I think a ''warlord'' should be the class that masters the exploration and social pillars instead of the combat one.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I agree. And good ideas.

However, bards and clerics give us a balance point. So it's still useful to see what they can do. If a level 5 bless spamming cleric is worth 9 damage a round, then...

1d8+4+1d6, granting super advantage would add...
4 damage.

So granting 2 attacks super advantage would be on par with bless's 1d4 to 3 people. Or perhaps 1 super advantage, and 1 reroll.
Also considering clerics also have guidance... something like...

Level 1: you can allow someone to spend a hit die. You can do this a number of times equal to your class level per long rest.

Level 2: when you take the help action, the target can roll 3 d20s instead of 2.

Level 5: As a reaction when someone misses an attack, you can let them reroll the attack.

Level 8: you gain +int to weapon damage.

Level 11: you gain an extra reaction.

They're going to need a great deal more than that to catch up with "also being a full caster with a strong spell selection". I mean, the L1 ability, for example, has no bonus and a pretty harsh limitation (perhaps INT mod + half your level would make more sense - lower cap, higher base). A Bard has +1d6 on ALL HD usage in rests with no limits whatsoever, and that's on top of being able to cast actual healing spells. Sure it's out of combat only, but for the Bard, it's just a generic minor ability, whereas for the Warlord it's a core part of what he does.

I do like the general direction you're going in though. Just don't forget all the OTHER spells Clerics and Bards get alongside the direct buffs.

It may seems weird, but I think a ''warlord'' should be the class that masters the exploration and social pillars instead of the combat one.

That's clearly going far, far too far, but the idea that they could help avoid combat, set ambushes, give initiative buffs, use INT skills in combat to gain advantages and so on is a good one.

Basically take Sun Tzu and go through all the suggestions, and see if you can apply them to the class.

 

[Zardnaar]

IMO, enough to make lazy-lord the base class. Medium armour, simple weapons, d8 hit dice. Increase weapon damage by 1d8 at level 8 and 2d8 at level 14. (Maybe +int to damage instead of d8).
Same as cleric, minus the shield.

Then make the warlord a sub-class who gets extra damage. Similar to the war cleric, but not as sucky.
I.e.
Warlord
Level 1: proficency in martial melee weapons and heavy armor.
Level 6: when you use your action to perform a tactical maneuver, you can also make a single melee attack.

Martyr
Level 1: proficient in shields. You can use your reaction to push an ally out of the way and become the target of the attack.
Level 6: when you use your level 3 ability, you gain a few THP.

Watchman
Level 1: you cannot be surprised. Gain a bonus to initiative.
Level 6: your allies cannot be surprised. Allies gain a bonus to initiative.

Etc...

Very similar to my 3 warlord designs. They get shields though. Bravura gets weapon style and multiple attacks at 5th level.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

That's clearly going far, far too far, but the idea that they could help avoid combat, set ambushes, give initiative buffs, use INT skills in combat to gain advantages and so on is a good one.

Basically take Sun Tzu and go through all the suggestions, and see if you can apply them to the class.

OK, maybe ''master'' was a strong word. But yeah, Sun Tzu was my main inspiration: the guy who help choose the right place to fight the enemy, who knows how to lay traps/ambush and trick the enemy into them, the guy who would talk before combat if possible and tries again after the combat for the few still alive.
Some exemple of things I think would look great on a martial support:
- Terrain bonus (Investigation roll after a rest to gain +Int to Ini and some skills for the party)
- The pacifist paladin UA's feature that allowed to Charm or Frightened a creature at 0 HP instead of killing it.
- Encampment bonus (shorter rests, Perception bonus for the one who guards the camp, recover faster from exhaustion)
- War of attrition: (I've seen this feature on the ranger from Middle-Earth 5e and found it cool and thematic) At higher level, enemies within a certain radius cannot regain HP or gain Exhaustion level. Merely a ribbon for most campaign, but powerful yet thematic on the right occasion.

Just spitballing some ideas.