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Mike Mearls Happy Fun Hour: The Warlord

There are several class features that already use "attacks" as a resource: Commander's Strike, commanding a ranger companion, pact of the chain familiar attacks).

It might be "cleaner", but remember, the Warlord comes from the despised-by-many 4e. Making it a full class (and the first official new full class at that) would give the impression of backsliding. I.e. not a good move from the point of view of commercial politics. Slipping it in as a subclass would be a concession to those few strange people who actually liked 4e that would not anger those who didn't.

There aren't enough eyerolls in the world for the stacked deck of silly business this post contains.

3.5 used the term "extraordinary" for special things that where specifically not "magic".

I see no reason 5e can't also use that term.

5E doesn't use specific keyword-type terms to describe abilities or spells in that way, so that's why it couldn't. Sage Advice has bumped into this topic quite a few times (especially when Dispel Magic comes up).
 

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bedir than

Full Moon Storyteller
I read a lot of the Warlord debate and rarely participate.

One of the ways I would implement on the Fighter chassis would be to use Superiority Dice as the pool, but instead grant the maneuvers to others rather than self. One could also use these to power Hit Dice healing, sacrificing a maneuver to instead inspire health.

Switching a few of the other Fighter abilities from self to "ally within X feet" would gain many of the benefits which Warlord fans want.
 

GreenTengu

Adventurer
To make the Warlord, one would be far better off starting with the Bard than the Fighter.

From the Bard, you simply remove the wizard-like spellcasting and the Rogue-like skill focus.

Add in some better weapon/armor options so that you could possibly have a Strength-based one.

Mix in the Superiority Dice shtick of the Battle Master, but give them considerably more superiority dice and the ability to use them far more frequently for better effects as they increase in level.

The primary Fighter class is so focused on granting the most ability score improvements and the most attacks of any class that you can't really carve out a subclass for it that can have particularly potent or specific powers without it being imbalanced because it will always fundamentally have the ability to run right up to a monster and hit it more often for harder than anyone else. So any other abilities will either have to be quite imbalanced or simply inferior to just hitting something a lot with your weapon.
 

3.5 used the term "extraordinary" for special things that where specifically not "magic".

I see no reason 5e can't also use that term.

Listening to Crawford discuss the rules, they do. Abilities use words like "magic" and "magical" very deliberately in class features for that reason, using plain text to denote the mundane from the magical.
 

For the the true D&D should be like a martial adept (3.5 Tome of Battle: book of nine swords) with the school "White Raven" or the warder and warlord classes for Pahtinfer: Paths of War by Dreamscarred Press.
 

Yaarel

He-Mage
The design goal needs to be to create a warlord that warlord fans are generally happy with.

Wizard fans need to be generally happy with the wizard class. Elf fans need to be happy with the elf ancestry. Fighter fans need to be happy with the fighter class. No less, warlord fans need to be happy with the warlord class.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
There’s no difference between bravura and lazy. They do identical things, just flavoured slightly differently.
Way off base.

Even mechanically, they were quite distinct:

A bravura build was high-STR, with enhanced defense and strong offense in its own right. Exploits it's particularly good at invited attacks, protected allies, and even marked - and if they keyed off a secondary stat, typically used CHA.

A lazy build would put lower-priority on - even intentionally dump - STR and offense in general - the powers it was best at tended to key off INT, and obviously, to grant attacks and other actions or provide comparatively passive benefits.

Not really. In one you attack and cause a rider. In the other you give up the attack to cause a rider.
That's a gross oversimplification often used in the edition war to criticize 4e class designs, in general. Yeah, 4e simplified things down to attack rolls to resolve all attacks, instead of using saving throws and one-off mechanics. That didn't render any two given 'builds' (really alternate feature choices: the 4e equivalent of a 5e sub-class) the same any more than it rendered all classes the same.

It'd be like saying there's no difference between the 5e Cleric and the 5e Warlock because they both cast spells. By that standard, most 5e classes have no standing to exist.

Aside: One mildly annoying thing WotC sometimes does is to take terms widely used in the community - like 'exploit' and 'build' and even 'Core' and give them an official meaning somewhat at odds with that usage. 4e called a choice of a defining class feature that could ripple through the class's capabilities and powers from 1st through 30th, a 'build.' Essentials called an alternate version of a class with often radically different mechanics and role, a sub-class. 5e calls a set of alternate class features a sub-class (or in the case of martial classes, an archetype). Archetype actually means something in natural language, too, but 5e departed from it's jargon-avoidance long enough to co-opt it. :shrug:

Anyway, upshot is that the 6 official Warlord 'builds' (and the Archer warlord) were more like 5e sub-classes than char-op builds...

Lazy lord isn’t an archetype. It’s just a way you could play any tactical or inspirational warlord.
"Lazylord" was a build in the CharOp sense. You could use it as an archetypal imperious commander barking out orders, or a stereotypical plucky side-kick shouting encouragement, or a 'victim' (because damsel in distress would be sexist) inviting rescue. Where it really shone, IMHO, was in the latter sorts of concepts, they're something you've never been able to do in D&D without simply being useless.

In the first case, the imperious commander shouting orders, sure, tactical builds could do it, too. (Technically, because the Lazylord was a charop build, it used some official-build's toys, too, typically the Tactical warlord, though Resourceful could work, too - it just wasn't a big part of the build - in fact, had it been an official build, it probably would have granted allies extra actions when they spent action points, with it's own 'lazy presence').

Anyway, if the warlord design is as flexible as it probably should be to be a functional support character, any given warlord probably could use a gambit emblematic of any given other warlord archetype - including gambits that whatever less flippant label we put on Lazy (I like "Icon") is best at using.

The idea that one sub-class being able to use another's tricks somehow invalidates both is absurd on the face of it in the context of 5e. Look at the Wizard Traditions, any wizard of any Tradition can cast spells from any other's bailiwick, just like that. By the standard you've constructed for the Warlord, the Wizard has literally no valid sub-classes, and is not fit for inclusion as a full class.

Same's true of most sub-classes really.

Honestly, the same is true of every objection to including the Warlord as a class - were they applied even-handedly, they'd eliminate half the extant classes.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The design goal needs to be to create a warlord that warlord fans are generally happy with.
And that wouldn't even be hard, since there's only one model, the 4e version, to work from. By definition, if you're a Warlord fan, you're a fan of that Warlord (well, one or more of the 8 de-facto sub-classes of it).

Contrast that with the challenge of designing the Mystic. Psionics has changed quite radically with each edition. In AD&D it was an add-on special ability, randomly determined. In 2e, a single class. In 3e several of them. In 4e a Source, including the Monk (wtf). And psionics went from definitively (or controversially) not-magic, to DM-picks magic or different, to the distinction being kinda irrelevant.

Didn't stop them from tackling the Mystic.
 

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
I realise that many people struggle with the notion but non magical healing is as much pulling yourself together, summoning an Adrenaline rush, and ignoring the pain of those cuts, bruises, and strains as it is sealing up those wounds permanently.

I view barbarian damage resistance as brawling through the pain and ignoring broken bones rather than skin getting tougher.

I was actually being sarcastic and dismissive when I made the "That's nice." reply to the prior comment. :D
 

Satyrn

First Post
I was actually being sarcastic and dismissive when I made the "That's nice." reply to the prior comment. :D

That's nice. awesome.png
 

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