D&D 5E The Problem With At Will Attack Granting

Yunru

Banned
Banned
A question for all. How much did the strength of the lazy warlord mechanics in 4e factor into your like of the class?
For playing a lazylord? Very. I was an old wizened guy with a stick and it let me play the infirmed mystic very well without mechanical dissonance.

Foe playing any other class? It was great when someone else played one and let me be more badass, but otherwise wasn't even a factor.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
You're right, using haste is deceptive.
After all, it only takes 1 action, grants the attack foe as long as concentration's up (max 1 minute?), grants double speed, grants +2 AC and allows them to do something other than attacking.

In otherwords using haste to dermine when at-will attacks should be granted is a massively conservative estimate.

I have a warlord power that kind of functions like haste. It gives you the extra attack, refreshes on a short rest you do not get the other benefits though, it also doesn't require concentration or a drawback and it doesn't get interrupted.

Some of the other warlordy things are combining the various warlord things on various classes into one class. The Bravura is kind of on hold as I am having trouble working out how to make it work that well in 5E, the other 2 are a lot easier. Instead of inspiring word they get rallying cry which is bonus action grants a bonus hit dice to be used immediately.

Inspiring one uses bard dice, tactical one uses superiority dice, they get them sooner than bards and BM fighters and they get more of them. I also have been mapping 4E powers to "invocations" using the Warlock chassis as a template. Basic idea is non magical bard, uses warlock template (so you can build your own warlord a'la 4E powers),. The few spells Warlocks know have been replaced with hopefully good class abilities. A lot of the powers are based off 4E using 5E abilities to pull them off (disadvantage/advantage mechanic). Some of the powers use things like the fighter action surge and grant them to other PCs (yes that allows 2 spells a round). Others duplicate some spells in some ways like Greater Invisibility granting advantage to hit/disadvantage to get hit. Its martial so its weaker (PC is not actually invisible) but it also refreshes on a short rest, can't be interrupted but otherwise lasts a minute like the spell. Some of the powers grant skills like the warlock invocations and the U part of AEDU I suppose. Most abilities are short rest and several of them allow attack granting + rider (advantage etc) or are things like grant an action surge (on top of bardic/BM dice). You may not be able to grant attacks every round but you can do it a lot (18 times a day w/2 short rests)+ powers that allow attack granting + rider. The Tactical one focuses on that, the Inspiring one is a bit more defensive/healing/aura and the bravura is the smash face warlord. Some of the "invocations" have requirements limiting it to subclass (a'la pacts for the warlock),

Has fighter level ASI

If I get around to a magical subclass some of the invocation will be outright magical just like the warlocks so a 1/3rd caster warlord would have the same spell pattern as an EK/Arcane Trickster and get outright magical potions to pick and can cast a real haste later on and be proficient in con saves. Sure the Warlord can't grant at will attacks but they can grant an action surge that is unique and powerful.

In terms of priority I am looking at


inspiring/tactical
Bravura
Hypothetical magical warlord subclass ( 2 or 3 of them?)

Not sure if all the 4E subclasses are required or can be folded into the other 3.
 
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Yunru

Banned
Banned
When I made mine I did basically use the Fighter as a template (except levels 11 and 20), just giving others the benefit, not you.

Action surge clone that granted a full action to someone else, Second wind clone that healed someone else, Extra attack clone that enabled someone else (would that make it a clone of the UA Beastmaster's feautre), etc.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
When I made mine I did basically use the Fighter as a template (except levels 11 and 20), just giving others the benefit, not you.

Action surge clone that granted a full action to someone else, Second wind clone that healed someone else, Extra attack clone that enabled someone else (would that make it a clone of the UA Beastmaster's feautre), etc.

If I did put in at will attack granting it would probably be higher up not level 1. Perhaps level 5 on one of the subclasses. With a lot of things keyed off a bonus action a magical warlord with say green flame blade could be quite effective with the SCAG cantrips, 1/3rd spellcasting+ some warlord powers. GFB+ inspiring word/rallying cry as a bonus action, probably some extra damage in their like clerics at level 8 and 14.
 

mellored

Legend
Quite good, I like it.
There's one thing tho, and it may sound counter-intuitive: I dont think all the ''warlords'' (this is one of the reason I dont like the name) features needs to be combat-focused. I think that a martial support class should be able to help as well in combat than out of it. I even think warlord should feature abilities that remove or diminish the need to enter combat. Something like setting ambush, avoiding encounters, using cha/int/wis skills in combat instead of fighting rolls. This is why I liked the idea that someone said on one warlord thread or another, that the ''spell-less ranger'' archetype could be created in a warlord class quite easily.

It may seems weird, but I think a ''warlord'' should be the class that masters the exploration and social pillars instead of the combat one.
They're going to need a great deal more than that to catch up with "also being a full caster with a strong spell selection". I mean, the L1 ability, for example, has no bonus and a pretty harsh limitation (perhaps INT mod + half your level would make more sense - lower cap, higher base). A Bard has +1d6 on ALL HD usage in rests with no limits whatsoever, and that's on top of being able to cast actual healing spells. Sure it's out of combat only, but for the Bard, it's just a generic minor ability, whereas for the Warlord it's a core part of what he does.

I do like the general direction you're going in though. Just don't forget all the OTHER spells Clerics and Bards get alongside the direct buffs.
There's plenty of levels left to add other stuff. Like alternate uses for reactions (reroll when an enemy hits), sub-class skills (ranger group can move overland faster while using stealth), and such. That's just a skeleton. It still needs some meat an skin.
Also keep in mind, help action super-advantage will work for skills as well.

Also, I didn't want too much healing at level 1. Spending a hit die is enough to get off the ground.


Level 1: As a bonus action, you can allow someone to spend a hit die. You can do this a number of times equal to your class level per long rest.
Sub-class: (bonus proficency / expertise)
i.e. rangers get expertise in survival. Medics get expertise in medicine. warlords get weapon and armor. diplomats get persuasion

Level 2: when you take the help action, the target can roll 3 d20s instead of 2.

Level 3: Sub-class: (you can use your action to...
i.e. rangers can allow everyone to make a stealth check. Medics get +Int to healing. warlord can attack and help in the same action. Diplomats can charm.)

Level 5: As a reaction when someone misses an attack or fails a skill check, you can let them reroll the attack or check.

Level 6: Sub-class (you can use your reaction to...
i.e. rangers can move and hide as a reaction. medics and move and heal if someone drops. warlords can use the help action when they make an OA.).

... (more stuff, like initiative, reaction to avoid OAs, out of combat sub-class skill stuff...)

Level 11: you gain an extra reaction.

... (slightly more fantastic stuff, reaction to reroll failed a save with disadvantage, full action grant 1/rest, prevent a failed spell from using resources, more sub-class stuff).

Level 20: When you use the help action, the target d20 roll cannot be less than a 8 + your Int modifier.
 

mellored

Legend
Right. I think all 4e Warlord fans liked the lazylord concept much more than the traditional hit things and help allies while doing so type. What I am trying to ask is did you like the lazylord better because it was stronger than the other warlords. That is, would you or anyone have even cared for it if it was weaker?
Lazy-lords where weaker than attacking warlords.

So yes. My pixie lazy-lord was great fun fluttering around the battlefield annoying the enemies.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Lazy-lords where weaker than attacking warlords.

So yes. My pixie lazy-lord was great fun fluttering around the battlefield annoying the enemies.

Are you sure we were playing the same game? Maybe someone put some kind of herb in your coffee this morning? Like I really don't know how to respond to anything if you think attacking warlords were better than lazy ones.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Without spells I was finding it hard to get the WL healing right.

Two much at level 1 well you just made the cleric be crap and the WL should not be as good at healing as a cleric let alone life cleric.

I'm giving them a single use short rest recharge rallying cry that they get more off and they get choices to take more healing powers later on. The Inspiration one is also better at healing than the tactical one- charisma modifier to all HP regain in a 30' radius (this applies to other classes using healing abilities as well).

I might have to tweak that to the WL abilities only due to things like goodberry and lay on hands though. They also get a functional equivalent of the Bards song of rest ability.
 

mellored

Legend
Are you sure we were playing the same game? Maybe someone put some kind of herb in your coffee this morning? Like I really don't know how to respond to anything if you think attacking warlords were better than lazy ones.
Yes.
4 ally attacks < 4 ally attacks + a warlord attack.
 


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