Why I dislike Milestone XP

[Lanefan]

No, I really meant the players. Are they playing together towards a common goal, or is it every man for himself?

And so for me the context is different. Rather than XP being a reward for things the character did, its a reward for things the team did.

Which means you're using xp to incentivize teamwork. Nothing wrong with that provided everyone pulls the rope equally, which doesn't always happen.

Since I play 3rd edition (3.5 to be precise), keeping all players on the same level is more important for the sake of balance.

Yeah, that's a significant failing of both 3.x and 4e - the power curve is too steep.

However, I also don't want any of my players to feel like they are missing out on XP, just because they aren't that good at roleplaying, or they didn't have a good roleplaying moment that the DM wanted to reward with XP. There should be no pressure to be a good roleplayer, just have fun, and if you have a cool moment, the whole group is rewarded. This makes it less of a competition in my opinion. It also creates a nice atmosphere where both the players and the DM reach a mutual agreement regarding what were the roleplaying highlights of the evening.

For the most part I've found giving out xp for straight roleplaying (kind of like what's advocated in the 1e DMG) or on any other DM-discretion basis is just bad news waiting to happen, mostly because it's too easy for the DM to play favourites for whatever reason. It could be the DM likes or dislikes a particular player at the table (I've seen this!), it could be the DM likes or dislikes a particular character, or class(es) e.g. a DM might always tend to give more xp to the martial characters just because she likes martials and wants to overtly or covertly discourage people from playing casters.

The rules on experience points refer to it as both a reward for the player and character.

Rulings, not rules. That's a reference I've chosen to ignore since day 1.

In my current campaign, if someone is absent, the character is either not present or fades to the background and gets no XP.

While I know there's lots of tables that do it this way, for me it just doesn't make in-game sense that Falstaff is front-and-center most of the time but every so often kinda fades out or wanders off.

Most of the time our sessions end at whatever convenient stopping point we can find - sometimes (like this week) at the end of a round but still in mid-combat! I already know I'm down a player for next session but that doesn't mean his PCs (some players run two, it's allowed) are suddenly going to stop fighting once next session gets underway. And so if I get instructions from that player they'll be followed as best they can within reason, and if not then those PCs are at the mercy of whoever ends up playing them...this is a well-known standard procedure in our crew and has been for decades.

Lanefan

 

[Satyrn]

It's all pretty typical of a "Win the game" attitude instead of a "play the game" attitude. For some people it's all about the race to the end, and not the journey itself. Different styles of play.

I really don't know how you can conclude that it's all about the race to the end for [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] when he spams the board with quotes from the game's books like "if everyone had a good time and created a memorable story, they all win."

 

[Oofta]

Sure, but things like, say, spending session time on shopping or hanging around taverns ordering breakfast are worth nothing in terms of advancement (in general), so my goal would be to get to it in order to advance as quickly as possible. Assuming that's my goal which I think is reasonable one.

From that perspective, I guess you are correct. I don't think spending in-game time shopping or ordering breakfast is particularly good use of game time. Unless there's something unique about the situation such as trying to purchase an item that is particularly difficult to obtain or it's part of the story general housekeeping is done off screen.

I don't see any more need to RP ordering bacon and eggs than I would see a need to RP the visit to the latrine after your morning coffee. Well, unless there's an oytugh hiding in the latrine of course.

I haven't done the math for 5E yet but in the past IIRC I broke encounters down into easy, medium and hard with values 1,3,6 respectively. Most non-combat encounters were easy or medium, although sneaking behind enemy lines could count as hard especially if I expected the group to use significant resources in terms of consumables, spells or calling in favors. Level after you get around 30 points (less for initial levels in 5E).

If I wanted to, I could have a multiplier for different aspects of the game, but like I said I'd rather do that organically by setting up situations than rewarding behaviors I want.

 

[Caliban]

I really don't know how you can conclude that it's all about the race to the end for [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] when he spams the board with quotes from the game's books like "if everyone had a good time and created a memorable story, they all win."

You can quote lots of stuff from books. Doesn't mean you believe it. He has repeatedly stated he wants to focus on things that advance his character, and not spend time on other things. Sounds like if he doesn't get rewarded with a tangible sign of character advancement (i.e. XP or a clearly defined "milestone" or level up) he doesn't want to spend time on it. He's been pretty clear on that.

In my opinion, of course. YMMV.

 

[Satyrn]

You can quote lots of stuff from books. Doesn't mean you believe it. He has repeatedly stated he wants to focus on things that advance his character, and not spend time on other things. Sounds like if he doesn't get rewarded with a tangible sign of character advancement (i.e. XP or a clearly defined "milestone" or level up) he doesn't want to spend time on it. He's been pretty clear on that.

In my opinion, of course. YMMV.

Are there 2 iseriths here? It's like you're describing a completely different guy than the one I see.

 

[Caliban]

Are there 2 iseriths here? It's like you're describing a completely different guy than the one I see.

Whatever you say mate. He's done everything I've mentioned - it's all here in the forum history for you to read. I'm not making anything up. Obviously your mileage has indeed varied from mine.

 

[iserith]

Rulings, not rules. That's a reference I've chosen to ignore since day 1.

I think the rules are correct. The character increases in power as a result of doing certain things, and the incremental advance toward that increase in power is the reward for the player for having the character do those things.

While I know there's lots of tables that do it this way, for me it just doesn't make in-game sense that Falstaff is front-and-center most of the time but every so often kinda fades out or wanders off.

Most of the time our sessions end at whatever convenient stopping point we can find - sometimes (like this week) at the end of a round but still in mid-combat! I already know I'm down a player for next session but that doesn't mean his PCs (some players run two, it's allowed) are suddenly going to stop fighting once next session gets underway. And so if I get instructions from that player they'll be followed as best they can within reason, and if not then those PCs are at the mercy of whoever ends up playing them...this is a well-known standard procedure in our crew and has been for decades.

Lanefan

One of the good things about a game that is about storytelling and shares elements with childhood games of make-believe is that the fiction is very mutable. It's therefore typically very easy in my experience to come up with a plausible in-game reason a PC is absent, if you need one, or how the PC fades to the background and is still making the odd comment and helping in various scenes, but isn't mechanically impacting anything (or being impacted mechanically).

Due to using a player pool system to run my campaign, my player roster can change from week to week as can the characters. So I have a lot of experience dealing with this. Tonight, in fact, the insane dwarf clown bard who was with the party last session will not be with the party this session and his seat was taken by a paladin who thinks he's becoming a god. So the clown, Bo Low, will either fade to the background or we'll just say he couldn't stand another moment in the idyllic pastoral community of Ecstasy and had to get back to grimy Sigil. Carl Lagerbelly, the paladin, meanwhile will just turn up from Sigil having caught up with the party and he'll have a reasonable excuse for why he was delayed and missed the debate and battle in the Philosopher's Court. Bo Low will earn no experience tonight, but he also has no chance of being slain by the lurking villain in Ecstasy, nor any of the bad guys and monsters in the Gate-Town of Curst, while the player has no control over him.

 

[iserith]

From that perspective, I guess you are correct. I don't think spending in-game time shopping or ordering breakfast is particularly good use of game time. Unless there's something unique about the situation such as trying to purchase an item that is particularly difficult to obtain or it's part of the story general housekeeping is done off screen.

I don't see any more need to RP ordering bacon and eggs than I would see a need to RP the visit to the latrine after your morning coffee. Well, unless there's an oytugh hiding in the latrine of course.

As an aside, I'm actually writing a short-form scenario that lampoons the breakfast-ordering trope. I've seen so much time getting eaten up on vodcasts (even some very popular ones) with this sort of thing, that I thought I'd create an actual exciting challenge that revolves around ordering breakfast. My working title is "You Fool, You Killed Us By Ordering the Sausage!" I'll post it up once I'm done with it.

I haven't done the math for 5E yet but in the past IIRC I broke encounters down into easy, medium and hard with values 1,3,6 respectively. Most non-combat encounters were easy or medium, although sneaking behind enemy lines could count as hard especially if I expected the group to use significant resources in terms of consumables, spells or calling in favors. Level after you get around 30 points (less for initial levels in 5E).

If I wanted to, I could have a multiplier for different aspects of the game, but like I said I'd rather do that organically by setting up situations than rewarding behaviors I want.

I think it probably works fine without the points and would only need firming up (to my tastes anyway) with regard to the specific number of encounters and how something was identified as an encounter that counted toward the goal.

 

[Satyrn]

As an aside, I'm actually writing a short-form scenario that lampoons the breakfast-ordering trope. I've seen so much time getting eaten up on vodcasts (even some very popular ones) with this sort of thing, that I thought I'd create an actual exciting challenge that revolves around ordering breakfast. My working title is "You Fool, You Killed Us By Ordering the Sausage!" I'll post it up once I'm done with it.

Ha! Like the players will stop singing long enough to accomplish anything.

 

[Oofta]

As an aside, I'm actually writing a short-form scenario that lampoons the breakfast-ordering trope. I've seen so much time getting eaten up on vodcasts (even some very popular ones) with this sort of thing, that I thought I'd create an actual exciting challenge that revolves around ordering breakfast. My working title is "You Fool, You Killed Us By Ordering the Sausage!" I'll post it up once I'm done with it.

Isn't "You Fool, You Killed Us By Ordering the Sausage!" already a country western song? Be careful of copyright infringement!

I think it probably works fine without the points and would only need firming up (to my tastes anyway) with regard to the specific number of encounters and how something was identified as an encounter that counted toward the goal.

Yeah, now that I think on it a little more I probably have my total off. I haven't used the method in 5E yet. If I get a chance this week I'll run the numbers again.