D&D 5E MTOF: Elves are gender-swapping reincarnates and I am on board with it

[Sunseeker]

Furthermore, for what it's worth, it turns out they are less idyllic than they have gotten a reputation for. Violence, including sexual violence, is well within their observed capabilities.

Who suggested early human life was idyllic? Yaarel's argument wasn't to suggest life was better, only that it was less structured.

I know that among some anthropologists/sociologists/political theorists misanthropy is a common trend, and it often expresses itsself in "If only the agricultural revolution never happened!" But I don't think that particular argument was the one [MENTION=58172]Yaarel[/MENTION] was making.

 

[Eltab]

If trying to model reallife human biological gender, then humans probably evolved as paleolithic nomadic clans that resemble bonobos.

Generally, bonobos are peaceful, highly sexual, and egalitarian. Bonobos use casual sex for social bonding and resolution of conflict. Bonobos are bisexual. (Are there any studies to see if minority individuals have a preferred orientation?) There is no awareness of the connection between sex and pregnancy, so culturally the bonobos have mothers but no fathers. So children are loyal to their mothers. In this way, when the female group decides in an egalitarian way, the male group being loyal to their mothers tend to go along with the decisions of the female group.

In paleolithic human gender division, there are probably males who self-identified with the female group (care-givers and gatherers), and females who self-identify with the male group (hunters).

In the human context, I suspect individuals already exhibited strong sexual and gender diversity. So all permutations existed. Males who self-identify as male but prefer other males. Males who self-identify as female but prefer other females. And so on. Likewise, some individuals were strongly monogamous, and other individuals strongly polyamorous. And so on. Even if some individuals discovered the connection between sex and pregnancy, it was culturally insignificant. Paleolithic humans only had mothers. And were generally peaceful. Resembling bonobos.



The Neolithic Revolution introduced new, more violent, cultures, where the discovery of farming led to non-nomadic settlement, competition over farmable land, and the repurposing of hunting skills to ‘hunt’ other humans in war.

In some sense, the human shift from paleolithic peace to neolithic violence is a reallife ‘exile from the Garden of Eden’.

If only we could cast Time Travel and Detect Thoughts IRL. We could find out for certain, instead of having to make inferences through our own lenses of experience.

But it is an interesting theory - and as such I can apply it to orcs or elves in my campaign, if I decide 'that's the way I want it to be'.

 

[mrpopstar]

I'm not opposed to the deeper lore offered up by Mordenkainen. In truth, he's merely one observational science-type out there observing--what he sees and understands may not be what actually is. #mytake

In my home-brew, elves have always been androgynous if not largely non-binary. They've all been represented in character terms as having long hair, short tunics, and bare legs a la classic Link. (Lithe, beautiful, fierce and captivating are not terms specific to gender.)

I'm not all that interested in Correllon, and the cycle of fey life and death operates a bit differently in my world than Mordenkainen claims, so I will pick and choose as need determines.

 

[Eltab]

Though I'm less familiar with the Dragonborn lore, if we took a more reptilian visual approach to them, it could easily be applicable there.

Reptiles (and birds) lay eggs, which would suggest a shorter but more intense period of physical disability for the female, until the eggs were laid. After that, anybody at all can incubate them. Maybe the physically frail (elderly / young)? Leaving all individuals at the top of their physical game available to deal with the challenges of existence. And every one of you were raised by the clutch's Grandparents.

 

[Sunseeker]

Reptiles (and birds) lay eggs, which would suggest a shorter but more intense period of physical disability for the female, until the eggs were laid. After that, anybody at all can incubate them. Maybe the physically frail (elderly / young)? Leaving all individuals at the top of their physical game available to deal with the challenges of existence. And every one of you were raised by the clutch's Grandparents.

Now I'm interested in working up a much more reptilian-styled society for Dragonborn.

 

[Riley37]

Reptiles (and birds) lay eggs, which would suggest a shorter but more intense period of physical disability for the female, until the eggs were laid. After that, anybody at all can incubate them. Maybe the physically frail (elderly / young)? Leaving all individuals at the top of their physical game available to deal with the challenges of existence. And every one of you were raised by the clutch's Grandparents.

I play a dragonborn PC, so I put some time into considering how gender roles might differ when raising children doesn't involve nursing. I came up with some similar conclusions. I decided that a dragonborn clan keeps eggs in a communal hatchery, rather than in the egg-layer's individual house or lair. Since, unlike any real-world reptile, they are tool-users, they can use a hearth fire to keep the hatchery warm; one or two adults, possibly in the age humans consider "grandparent" age, tend the fire, and when they're not adding a log to the coals, they curl up around the eggs which need the most fine-tuned temperature maintenance. This role doesn't have to be exclusive to the sex which lays eggs. All it takes is fire-keeping skills and one's own body temperature.

When the eggs hatch, anyone can participate in child-raising. No nursing, remember? Anyone can deliver easily-digestible food (perhaps the adult chews it up and spits it out) to the hatchlings. If the young are fed by a team of adult child-raisers, then they might never know who laid their egg, let alone who fertilized that egg; they would form loyalty to the clan as a collective. Dragonborn start life in the clan's hatchery, and are initially raised by whatever clan members specialized in childcare. When they're old enough for tasks, rather than just free-form play, they transition to apprenticing with the clan's hunters, ranchers, crafters, warriors, etc. Mammal humanoid loyalty to mother, father and "family" would be a foreign concept to any dragonborn who grew up in a clan which operated on those principles.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Who suggested early human life was idyllic? Yaarel's argument wasn't to suggest life was better, only that it was less structured.

I know that among some anthropologists/sociologists/political theorists misanthropy is a common trend, and it often expresses itsself in "If only the agricultural revolution never happened!" But I don't think that particular argument was the one [MENTION=58172]Yaarel[/MENTION] was making.

Yaarel will have to speak for himself, but the line "In some sense, the human shift from paleolithic peace to neolithic violence is a reallife ‘exile from the Garden of Eden’ " is hard to square with what you're saying on his behalf.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I play a dragonborn PC, so I put some time into considering how gender roles might differ when raising children doesn't involve nursing.

Who said dragonborn don't nurse? The art department certainly thinks they do.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Maybe the physically frail (elderly / young)? Leaving all individuals at the top of their physical game available to deal with the challenges of existence. And every one of you were raised by the clutch's Grandparents.

That's not even rare in human societies. Gestation and nursing, though longer than egg incubation, are still relatively short phases of a childhood. After that, Grandma and Grandpa are at least as good, and probably better, caregivers than Mom. Indeed, you might even think of Mom's role as "apprentice Grandma", gaining the experience to be primary caregiver for the next generation.

EDIT: As for dragonborn, have you looked at birds? They're egg-layers but tend to be smarter and often more social than reptiles, so they may be better models.

 

[Parmandur]

Who said dragonborn don't nurse? The art department certainly thinks they do.

Dragonborn are draconic, after all: D&D Dragons are not necessarily Reptiles, they have Mammalian and Avian features as well.