Banishing Eldritch Blast

[TheCosmicKid]

Yes lol, the Warlock is, in some respects, the champion of spellcasters.

That was definitely true of the original incarnation in 3.5. But the odd thing about the 5E warlock is that it is, in some respects, the most complicated class. It has two major class decision points instead of one (patron and pact type), two different "silos" of special abilities (spells and invocations), and even two different resource systems for spells after 11th level, both of which are unlike any other class'.

In a perfect world, I would have liked to see a stripped-down, 3.5-style, "just blast all day without a care" class existing alongside and separate from the "Faustian mage" class.

 

[the Jester]

Well, if you take the Repelling Blast Cantrip, this is only a problem for your first beam (unless it misses). It’s still a good idea to have a melee Cantrip in your back pocket, but often it’s worth the disadvantage on the first attack to get the following ones off.

Nope. You launch all those beams at once, not in sequence. At least, that's how I rule it.

 

[Guest 6801328]

To expand on what [MENTION=71699]clearstream[/MENTION] was saying, when the Warlock first came out in 3.5 Eldritch Blast and Invocations were THE defining feature of the class. Unlike any other spellcasters in that edition, they did not cast spells. Rather they had access to a small number of spell-like abilities that could be used at will. For the evolution of spellcasters in future editions, I would argue it was a turning point because it was the first time a player could reliably cast spells (or at least feel like they were casting spells since they were really spell-like abilities) at will without using resources. You may recognize this as the At-will powers in 4th edition and the cantrips in 5e. And while the original warlock had a number of different powers they could achieve with invocations, a large number of them specifically increased the utility of the Eldritch Blast. As a result, I would have expected the designers to make Eldritch Blast more of a class feature of the Warlock rather than a cantrip due to their relationship.

To put it another way, in previous editions Eldritch Blast to the Warlock was akin to Sneak Attack for the Rogue. In fact, I would argue that the Rogue is a better point of comparison for the Warlock than either the Wizard or the Sorcerer. If we do this, then lets compare Sneak Attack to Eldritch Blast / Agonizing Blast for level 11 characters with a +5 bonus in their relevant stat. On average, a Rogue's sneak attack will deal 30.5 damage to a single enemy using a rapier. Assuming all three blasts hit, a Warlock will deal 31.5 damage. This doesn't account for criticals. A Rogue's sneak attack damage will be more of a swing, but whereas the Rogue only needs to hit once for that damage, a warlock will need to hit 3 times but deal more reliable damage. Additionally, the rogue does not need any additional ability investment for this amount of damage, while the Warlock needs to sacrifice an invocation. But then again, the rogue needs to meet certain circumstantial conditions to get sneak attack, while the Warlock can do this at will.

Well, that at least explains how they got here. So I guess we can add Eldritch Blast to a long list of lame design decisions that are only in the game because of precedent.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Well, that at least explains how they got here. So I guess we can add Eldritch Blast to a long list of lame design decisions that are only in the game because of precedent.

Yea, I mean personally when it came out Warlock was easily my favorite class (even more so than the Artificer for those of you that know how much I love Eberron). It was the kind of magic user I always wanted but wasn't smart enough to conceive myself. But with 5e cantrips, it takes away a large part of what made that class mechanically special. I feel like its similar with the Sorcerer. The thing that made the sorcerer special was that they didn't need to prepare spells in advance. But now, no spells are prepared in advance, at least not in the same way a 3.x wizard needed to. 5e kind of averaged out what made each spellcasting class cool and fun. Which makes it more fun to use magic in general, but also lessens the distinction and uniqueness between the different types of magic user.

 

[Li Shenron]

Eldritch Blast is really the best damage dealing cantrip.

I don't think so.

Before augmentations*, EB is mostly on par with the other attack cantrips. It's not even the top-damage cantrip (Poison Spray is, with d12), it has a good base damage of d10 compared to most other cantrips, but in general one dice category difference means only 1 point of average damage difference per die, so even at the fourth tier (levels 17+) the average difference is 4 damage points, not a huge advantage at that tier. In compensation for damage lower than d10, the other cantrips all have an extra effect which may not always be useful, but when it is useful it's actually useful at all levels.

I am actually VERY pleased by how all cantrips were designed pretty balanced against each other. If you were to choose any one attack cantrip among the whole list, there would always be a compelling tactical reason to choose each one. However, all cantrips do NOT normally compete directly into each other, except when a character is considering taking the Magic Initiate feat or has some class features that allows to pick a cantrip from another class spell list.

In the Warlock's general case, Eldritch Blast compete only against Chill Touch and Poison Spray. Now, for a player character choosing Eldritch Blast is normally slightly better only because force damage resistance** is rare, while poison damage resistance is common, and monsters don't often heal. But for a nonplayer character I'd say that Chill Touch is the best choice, because it blocks healing, and that against PCs can hurt a lot more than a few points of damage more. Poison Spray is the top-damage dealing cantrip, but the price to pay is the extremely short range, so it can be a good choice only for a melee-oriented Warlock.

If the Warlock has Pact of the Tome however, she can also choose cantrips from other classes, but still there is always a good tactical reason for each one of those.

*Of course, with the proper invocations then Eldritch Blast becomes better than other cantrips, and here there is quite a variety of potency. Repelling Blast is a nice useful effect, but overall not above of other cantrips bonus effects, so quite balanced IMO. Eldritch Spear is frankly only rarely going to make a difference, since EB range is already long enough in all indoor and most outdoor situations. Agonizing Blast might in fact be a little too good if the Cha bonus applies to each EB ray. The cost to pay is of course not getting other invocations instead.

**It's irrelevant for this discussion, but about this I have sometimes wished that the Shield spell hadn't been designed specifically against Magic Missile but more generally against force damage effects.

So good, that our Warlock with Pact of the Tome and Magic Initiate recently mentioned that he never cast any of his other cantrips (except for Guidance).

Bad thought of the day, ignore if you don't want to get mad at me: [sblock]Good for him to like monotony. I know this kind of player: they always think of the game to be monolithically about combat, and combat to be monolithically about damage, they "build" their PC monolithically around that, they have fun for a couple of nights "pwing" the game, then boredom "monolithically" hits them in their back and they blame the game that "sucks" and "needs fixing", while they should only fix themselves. Let him play what he wants and enjoy his later frustration.[/sblock]

Eldritch Blast is removed. In compensation, Warlocks get to add their various Blast invocations to any one-target cantrip that does damage (with one minor change, which is that Spear is tripled range, instead of a flat 300').

Well this is not a bad house rule. There is no real balance problem with it, and it's good when a character option meant to be used in one case can also be used in another. I just don't think you need to ban EB in order to have this house rule.

Additionally, at 2nd level they get the Minor Arcanum: two cantrips from any arcane spell list (Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard).

I don't really see the reason for this freebie. I'd stick with the 3 default possible Warlock attack cantrips just like other classes stick with their own, and leave the bonus cantrips only to Pact of the Tome.

Yea, I think there's a key question there that has to be answered before you can really houserule EB in any direction: Is the multi-attack component of Eldritch Blast a feature or a bug?

I don't see how you could not interpret it as a feature. It's definitely written-out explicitly so it must be as intended.

What perhaps is debatable is whether it is intended that the Warlock can target+attack and see the result of each EB beam before choosing the target for the next, or if she's supposed to select all targets when casting but before resolving the attacks (which prevents to always spread the damage optimally).

 

[5ekyu]

I don't think so.

Before augmentations*, EB is mostly on par with the other attack cantrips. It's not even the top-damage cantrip (Poison Spray is, with d12), it has a good base damage of d10 compared to most other cantrips, but in general one dice category difference means only 1 point of average damage difference per die, so even at the fourth tier (levels 17+) the average difference is 4 damage points, not a huge advantage at that tier. In compensation for damage lower than d10, the other cantrips all have an extra effect which may not always be useful, but when it is useful it's actually useful at all levels.

I am actually VERY pleased by how all cantrips were designed pretty balanced against each other. If you were to choose any one attack cantrip among the whole list, there would always be a compelling tactical reason to choose each one. However, all cantrips do NOT normally compete directly into each other, except when a character is considering taking the Magic Initiate feat or has some class features that allows to pick a cantrip from another class spell list.

In the Warlock's general case, Eldritch Blast compete only against Chill Touch and Poison Spray. Now, for a player character choosing Eldritch Blast is normally slightly better only because force damage resistance** is rare, while poison damage resistance is common, and monsters don't often heal. But for a nonplayer character I'd say that Chill Touch is the best choice, because it blocks healing, and that against PCs can hurt a lot more than a few points of damage more. Poison Spray is the top-damage dealing cantrip, but the price to pay is the extremely short range, so it can be a good choice only for a melee-oriented Warlock.

If the Warlock has Pact of the Tome however, she can also choose cantrips from other classes, but still there is always a good tactical reason for each one of those.

*Of course, with the proper invocations then Eldritch Blast becomes better than other cantrips, and here there is quite a variety of potency. Repelling Blast is a nice useful effect, but overall not above of other cantrips bonus effects, so quite balanced IMO. Eldritch Spear is frankly only rarely going to make a difference, since EB range is already long enough in all indoor and most outdoor situations. Agonizing Blast might in fact be a little too good if the Cha bonus applies to each EB ray. The cost to pay is of course not getting other invocations instead.

**It's irrelevant for this discussion, but about this I have sometimes wished that the Shield spell hadn't been designed specifically against Magic Missile but more generally against force damage effects.





Bad thought of the day, ignore if you don't want to get mad at me: [sblock]Good for him to like monotony. I know this kind of player: they always think of the game to be monolithically about combat, and combat to be monolithically about damage, they "build" their PC monolithically around that, they have fun for a couple of nights "pwing" the game, then boredom "monolithically" hits them in their back and they blame the game that "sucks" and "needs fixing", while they should only fix themselves. Let him play what he wants and enjoy his later frustration.[/sblock]




Well this is not a bad house rule. There is no real balance problem with it, and it's good when a character option meant to be used in one case can also be used in another. I just don't think you need to ban EB in order to have this house rule.



I don't really see the reason for this freebie. I'd stick with the 3 default possible Warlock attack cantrips just like other classes stick with their own, and leave the bonus cantrips only to Pact of the Tome.



I don't see how you could not interpret it as a feature. It's definitely written-out explicitly so it must be as intended.

What perhaps is debatable is whether it is intended that the Warlock can target+attack and see the result of each EB beam before choosing the target for the next, or if she's supposed to select all targets when casting but before resolving the attacks (which prevents to always spread the damage optimally).

"**It's irrelevant for this discussion, but about this I have sometimes wished that the Shield spell hadn't been designed specifically against Magic Missile but more generally against force damage effects."

Cannot agree more. It could also have served as a broader "force stops force" rule to essentially turn force from "almost nothing resists" to add "so there are more active defenses against it" kind of thing. Then have fun with basically a force-vs-force flavored subsystem.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't see how you could not interpret it as a feature. It's definitely written-out explicitly so it must be as intended.

Sorry, I didn't mean a feature as intended by the designers in 2014. I meant does [MENTION=71699]clearstream[/MENTION], as the OP who's looking to houserule, view it as a problem to solve or a feature to keep.

 

[Charlaquin]

Nope. You launch all those beams at once, not in sequence. At least, that's how I rule it.

Well, that’s your call. Nothing in the RAW says that’s how it works, and the fact that magic missile specifies that all darts hit simultaneously while Eldritch Blast does not leads me to think otherwise, but your table your rules.

 

[GMMichael]

For what it's worth, I banned warlocks way back in 3.5. The ban remains.

So here is my proposal.
. . . Heresy perhaps?

But that's not a bad idea: take away EB and just give them unlimited use of Heresy (Vicious Mockery).

 

[FrogReaver]

Eldritch blast + hex doesn’t even out pace a PHB hunter ranger (without feats) in ranged attack damage till level 11.

Maybe we should stop focusing so much on level 11+ or 17+ and look at where the majority of people play games. You’ll usually find that dips and the OP at level 20 damage comparisons melt away and what you think of as the strongest based on that limited level 20 viewpoint isn’t really the case.