D&D 5E The Problem with Constitution

[Lanefan]

It boils down to this: Con's big use - and the reason almost everyone wants it as high as possible - is the hit point bonus. Problem is, if you take that away (or worse, move it to another stat e.g. Charisma) then Con immediately becomes a dump stat.

This one's been a headache all the way back to 1e, and as the designers of 4+ subsequent editions haven't found a way to fix it since then I'm ready to say we're - in all editions - stuck with it.

 

[FrogReaver]

I very much agree. I think giving more classes more things to do with tertiary ability scores would also help. As of right now, Con feels like everyone's 2nd or 3rd highest stat, unless you're really building a character with a specific idea in mind and you can't really justify anything else. But even then, a 10 or 8 feels like you're saying "I don't want to have any fights in this game), even when 1 hp/level isn't that huge of a deal in the end.

Beyond your attack stat, defesne stat, spell casting stat... con is the only thing that does anything mechanically meaningful to survival. I mean another bonus on skill checks is nice but failing a skill check rarely results in character death in 5e. Running out of hp is much more likely to cause character death. Few more important skill checks may help with con being considered so important.

 

[FrogReaver]

It boils down to this: Con's big use - and the reason almost everyone wants it as high as possible - is the hit point bonus. Problem is, if you take that away (or worse, move it to another stat e.g. Charisma) then Con immediately becomes a dump stat.

This one's been a headache all the way back to 1e, and as the designers of 4+ subsequent editions haven't found a way to fix it since then I'm ready to say we're - in all editions - stuck with it.

I think 4e did a good job with con. My suggestion was to use something similar to it's hp system here. The goal is to make con as meaningful as other tertiary stats for classes that aren't viewed as needing it but to keep it as a meaningful secondary stat for classes that are viewed as needing it.

I think taking hp away from con and letting it define hp recovery goes a long way. I think concentration also needs untied from con. Part of the reason casters go con so heavy in this is because of concentration saves.

 

[Xeviat]

Beyond your attack stat, defesne stat, spell casting stat... con is the only thing that does anything mechanically meaningful to survival. I mean another bonus on skill checks is nice but failing a skill check rarely results in character death in 5e. Running out of hp is much more likely to cause character death. Few more important skill checks may help with con being considered so important.

That there are no real Con skills feels kind of weird too. I think an Endurance skill that let you do neat things would be really nice. Maybe things to do with hit dice, but that might be going too far.

 

[FrogReaver]

That there are no real Con skills feels kind of weird too. I think an Endurance skill that let you do neat things would be really nice. Maybe things to do with hit dice, but that might be going too far.

If con stops being hp and affecting concentration saves then I would go to 5 stats. Stregnth Dexterity Wisdom Intelligence Charisma. Strength would determine what it does now as well as hp recovery like healing surges. Hp would be class dependent and feat dependent.

I think that would also help balance strength and dex for this edition as well. Then you could also introduce an endurance skill for strength. Which I think would differentiate the 2 types of strength actions you can take very well. Athletics which helps on quick maneuvers. Endurance which helps on athletic feats that aren't over quickly. A marathon would be endurance. Maxing out your bench press would be athletics.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I see your issue and sympathize. Constitution is the one stat that no one wants to dump into because of the need for hit points but only get a really good number if that number isn't needed elsewhere.

In my game Con ranges from 12-16 I think. No one would ever consider putting an 8 or even anything under 12 unless they had to. Consider those character types, the standard array, and likely dump stat for instance:

Strong-guy: Str, then Con most likely. Dump is probably Int, Wis, or Cha.
Agile-guy: Dex, then maybe Int or Cha depending on the build, but Con would likely be third best or fourth--certainly not the 8! Dump is likely Wis or Str.
Smart-guy: Int, maybe Dex, Wis, or Cha, but then likely Con as 3rd or 4th, and likely dump the 8 would be in Str.
Wise-guy: Wis, maybe Str or Dex, but if you are fighting at all much likely Con is 2nd, 3rd, or maybe 4th... Dump here is probably Dex, Int, or even Cha.
Charm-guy: Cha, maybe Dex or Int or even Wis, but again Con is likely 3rd or 4th. Dump is likely Str, but others are possible of course depending on the build.
Tough-guy: Con, then probably Str or Dex or Wis, likely dump is Int.

So, yeah, you are unlikely to willingly see a player dump into Con unless they have a compelling story reason or other purpose for it. After all, who wants to have less hit points???

As for what exactly to do about it, I couldn't tell you much right now as I'll have to think about it and maybe discuss it with my group. I never played 4E or even 3 or 3.5 much, so I am not familiar with some of your thoughts linked to those editions.

 

[ad_hoc]

I very much agree. I think giving more classes more things to do with tertiary ability scores would also help. As of right now, Con feels like everyone's 2nd or 3rd highest stat, unless you're really building a character with a specific idea in mind and you can't really justify anything else. But even then, a 10 or 8 feels like you're saying "I don't want to have any fights in this game), even when 1 hp/level isn't that huge of a deal in the end.

You're right I just don't think this is a bad thing.

I could see a character saying "Of course adventurers have a hearty constitution."

They don't all need to be able to recollect libraries of information (low Int) but they sure all need to be at least somewhat tough.

I also think the 1hp/level is actually a big deal at a certain point. There difference between 1hp and 0hp is huge. Monsters do more and more damage as levels go up and being able to keep surviving that 1 or 2 extra hits is big. At a certain point that 1hp/level keeps you alive after 1 or 2 hits.


I think 5e could have done a bit more with ability scores in general but I don't think Con is a big outlier. Certainly not enough to create houserules around.

 

[77IM]

I think a big problem is that non-combat uses for Constitution rarely come up. It's mostly useful in overland travel (forced march, etc.) but even then, succeeding on some Con checks isn't exactly impressive. Holding your breath for a long time is cool, but it's not that helpful (I can't remember the last time I saw the breath-holding rules come into play).

One easy change would be to tie the Survival skill to Con. This way, untrained barbarians and fighters are better at Survival than untrained clerics and monks.

 

[Horwath]

14 con is default in all our campaigns and 12 and 16 covering about 10-20% of characters.

There was never 10 or 18 con in our group.

 

[Kurotowa]

My guiding principle as a rules modder is "all options should be viable".

And here's where we part ways. IME the only way for all options to be equally viable is to make every option identical, which in turn renders player choices irrelevant. Choices only matter if those choices result in measurably different results. As soon as you have different results it means you'll have outcomes that are more or less optimally suited for the desired result. That result can be combat efficiency, character concept fidelity, playstyle alignment, or whatever measure you care to use. A game system with meaningful choices will, by necessity, have some options that are more effective and some that are less.

D&D hardly has a shortage of these. I've got a player in my group who constantly gets odds character concepts in his head and finds it hard to realize them with the game system as it stands. We had to talk him down from trying to create a PC specialized in throwing axes because of how completely ineffective it is.

So let's talk ability scores. Every PC can rank the priority of ability scores based on their class and concept. You'll have a main stat based on class, secondary stats that boost other class abilities or chosen skills, and tertiary stats that provide no significant benefit and are often relegated to "dump" status. What's different about Con is that it's no one's main stat and everyone's secondary stat. No one makes an attack roll with Con but everyone benefits from extra HP.

Does this make Con unique out of the six abilities? Yes. Is that a problem? I don't see it as one. There's a lot of range within in the secondary stat field for different levels of emphasis. An evasive ranged character might be willing to sacrifice those points in Con, while a front line melee type is going to want as much extra HP as they can get. But everyone's going to feel the effects of Con to some degree, and that's fine. Not every stat needs to be main or dump.

What you'd really want, if you want to make Con the equal of the others, is a character class that somehow makes Con the main stat. How would that work? I have no idea. Maybe get really weird and make it someone who uses HP and healing surges as resources for special powers.