D&D General If not death, then what?

[Vaalingrade]

Note: I am not allowed to use time travel due to that time I manipulated a player into actions that resulted in her character becoming her own god and inspiration that saved her life in her backstory.

 

[James Gasik]

Note: I am not allowed to use time travel due to that time I manipulated a player into actions that resulted in her character becoming her own god and inspiration that saved her life in her backstory.

Huh. Seems like you should be encouraged to use time travel!

 

[Vaalingrade]

Huh. Seems like you should be encouraged to use time travel!

She was SO mad when she realized how it all fell into place and I got a plush Kirby upside the head.

She's not the one that banned me though; that was another player who went crosseyed at the explanation of how it happened... and the fact that I came prepared that night with a flow chart.

6 month run-up that all depended on my knowing the player's tendency to be supportive of every sad sack she met, keep hold of every useless item she finds and be completely defiant when the threat the party presented to causality was explain to the group.

 

[James Gasik]

She was SO mad when she realized how it all fell into place and I got a plush Kirby upside the head.

She's not the one that banned me though; that was another player who went crosseyed at the explanation of how it happened... and the fact that I came prepared that night with a flow chart.

6 month run-up that all depended on my knowing the player's tendency to be supportive of every sad sack she met, keep hold of every useless item she finds and be completely defiant when the threat the party presented to causality was explain to the group.

I mean, it was only a plush Kirby. Imagine if it had been a Snorlax, you'd still be out cold!

 

[Chaosmancer]

Wraith:
Create Specter. The wraith targets a humanoid within 10 feet
of it that has been dead for no longer than 1 minute and died
violently. The target's spirit rises as a specter in the space of
its corpse or in the nearest unoccupied space. The specter is
under the wraith's control. The wraith can have no more than
seven specters under its control at one time.

Already discussed this. Kill the specter, revivify the target.

Night Walker:
Life Eater. A creature reduced to 0 hit points from damage
d ealt by the nightwalker d ies and can't be revived by any means
short of a wish spell .

Yep, CR 21 entities are very nasty. Good thing a party of 17th level characters likely has access to Wish, or knows a way to get it. But, sure, that is one way of permanent death.

Son of Kyuss
Burrowing Worm. A worm launches from the spawn of Kyuss
at one humanoid that the spawn can see within 10 feet of it.
The worm latches onto the target's skin unless the target succeeds
on a DC 11 Dexterity saving throw. The worm is a Tiny
undead with AC 6, 1 hit point, a 2 (-4) in every ability score,
and a speed of l foot. While on the target's skin, the worm can
be killed by normal means or scraped off using an action (the
spawn can use this action to launch a scraped-off worm at a
humanoid it can see within 10 feet of the worm). Otherwise,
the worm burrows under the target's skin at the end of the
target's next turn, dealing 1 piercing damage to it. At the end
of each of its turns thereafter, the target takes 7 (2d6) necrotic
damage per worm infesting it (maximum of 10d6). A worm-infested
target dies if it drops to O hit points, then rises 10 minutes
later as a spawn of Kyuss. If a worm-infested creature is
targeted by an effect that cures disease or removes a curse, all
the worms infesting it wither away.

So... what happens if you cast Revify on the dead target BEFORE 10 minutes pass. Oh, right, they come back to life. Now, it doesn't remove disease or remove curse, so a DM could just keep killing the target. But, if the party has no way to deal with the worms, then you've really killed every party member, because the worms will kill them.

Of course, a lesser Restoration cures any disease, and if you can cast revivify you can cast lesser restoration, but this is a scary thing to face.

Yes, creating undead can be long, or short. But it does not change the fact that a character can be animated as an undead. Incinerated, put into acid and what not. And this is assuming the group fled or was killed. What if your healer does not have a revivify spell available in the allotted time?

Very few ways to incenerate a character without the DM specifically going out of their way to do so. Same with dumping the bodies in Acid.

Of course, of the entire party dies, that's different, or if they don't have the tools available, but that wasn't the scenario. Which I'll get back to in a second.

And Orcus can cast Animate dead as an action.
You conveniently ignored the Nabassu that if it kills a humanoid, that humanoid immediately rises as ghoul. Or the Devourer, Corpse flower. When I am near my books I can be much more precise. The intent is simply to say that if you get to be animated as an undead, no matter how. You're character is toast. That much is obvious per RAW and RAI. You picked the weak examples I gave because it was easy to debunk but you failed to prove that it could not be done.

And check the Vecna our dear friends at WoTC provided us with. Animate dead at will... So yep it can be done and if you go the 3PP, you'll get even more of these and these are sanctioned by WoTC as they are on DMSGuild and are used by a lot of tables.

Finally, the goal is not to say that you can not save a character from death but that there are occasions where said death is irrevocable.

So, let's summarize. You started with the assertion of "unavoidable" death by having a necromancer's skeleton double tapping a PC, then raising the PC as an undead. Which is impossible to do mid-combat. You've also accused me of picking on your "weak" examples, when... I've addressed all your examples? Seems like a rather strange claim that I only picked on the ones easy to disprove, which was all the ones you pointed out.

Our current "action animates" are Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead, Vecna the Lich god, and a Nabassu which is a CR 15 fiend which can only cause a ghoul if the PC fails a save, which then reduces its hp maximum to zero. Which, considering this is their only hp reduction ability, and is only 2d12 damage... I'm going to generously call unlikely. My 5th level characters wouldn't be turned into ghouls like this, let alone my 15th level characters. But hey, it is possible. The Corpse flower by the way need to kill a party member, devour the corpse, then choose to animate that corpse instead of another corpse in it, which is a lot of steps. Possible, but again, that is a lot of steps for a mindless flower.

But all of this completely ignores a... rather obvious thing. If you kill a zombie, it is a corpse, not an undead. So if the enemy zombifies you, and the party kills your zombie corpse... then they can revive you.

So, we've gone from 5th level characters facing a necromancer and his skeletons, to facing Orcus or Vecna, and as long as the players have the tools their is only one creature that you have listed which is actual, permanent death. And that's the Nightwalker. Who flat says you can't be revived.

So, really, if you have the tools, there is basically no way that death cannot be reversed. Except for a single creature, known to permanently kill people. Unless you have gone out of your way as the DM to either homebrew or destroy a corpse.

 

[Lanefan]

If that is the actual thing being aimed for, well...all I can say is, I think that's a bad definition of permanence with regard to consequences. It trivializes the fact that change requires time (which, unfortunately, we as gamers only have finite amounts of!), but more importantly, it creates an incentive to never care about anything at all, unless it involves your own death. It numbs. The value of a life well-lived, of familiar places and beloved possessions and loved ones is lost, crushed beneath the insistence that, unless you can die, nothing matters.

Which, for those playing a game remote from reality and where character and person are kept separate, is all you really need.

The value of a life well-lived isn't reflected in how you-as-character see it after death, but in how other characters see it. (which reflects real life)

Ultimately, it's equivalent to saying that the game never actually matters, because very few games consistently end with a TPK. Eventually, someone rides off into the sunset--which, by this uncompromising metric, by definition means the adventure was pointless.

It was pointless if there's a TPK, most likely; but not pointless if some but not all of the PCs survived and finished.

Some of the greatest tragedies in legend, literature, and actual history have been not the death of flesh, but the death of hope, the death of dreams. And there are things in this world which have no survival value, but rather which give value to survival, the loss of which would absolutely be a fate worse than death--for without them, there would be no difference in value between life and death.

Indeed, if one is trying to elevate (or sink?) one's game to the level of high literature.

Most of us aren't even thinking along those lines. Low-grade pulp is the best we can aspire to and some might not even try for that.

 

[Helldritch]

Already discussed this. Kill the specter, revivify the target.



Yep, CR 21 entities are very nasty. Good thing a party of 17th level characters likely has access to Wish, or knows a way to get it. But, sure, that is one way of permanent death.



So... what happens if you cast Revify on the dead target BEFORE 10 minutes pass. Oh, right, they come back to life. Now, it doesn't remove disease or remove curse, so a DM could just keep killing the target. But, if the party has no way to deal with the worms, then you've really killed every party member, because the worms will kill them.

Of course, a lesser Restoration cures any disease, and if you can cast revivify you can cast lesser restoration, but this is a scary thing to face.



Very few ways to incenerate a character without the DM specifically going out of their way to do so. Same with dumping the bodies in Acid.

Of course, of the entire party dies, that's different, or if they don't have the tools available, but that wasn't the scenario. Which I'll get back to in a second.



So, let's summarize. You started with the assertion of "unavoidable" death by having a necromancer's skeleton double tapping a PC, then raising the PC as an undead. Which is impossible to do mid-combat. You've also accused me of picking on your "weak" examples, when... I've addressed all your examples? Seems like a rather strange claim that I only picked on the ones easy to disprove, which was all the ones you pointed out.

Our current "action animates" are Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead, Vecna the Lich god, and a Nabassu which is a CR 15 fiend which can only cause a ghoul if the PC fails a save, which then reduces its hp maximum to zero. Which, considering this is their only hp reduction ability, and is only 2d12 damage... I'm going to generously call unlikely. My 5th level characters wouldn't be turned into ghouls like this, let alone my 15th level characters. But hey, it is possible. The Corpse flower by the way need to kill a party member, devour the corpse, then choose to animate that corpse instead of another corpse in it, which is a lot of steps. Possible, but again, that is a lot of steps for a mindless flower.

But all of this completely ignores a... rather obvious thing. If you kill a zombie, it is a corpse, not an undead. So if the enemy zombifies you, and the party kills your zombie corpse... then they can revive you.

So, we've gone from 5th level characters facing a necromancer and his skeletons, to facing Orcus or Vecna, and as long as the players have the tools their is only one creature that you have listed which is actual, permanent death. And that's the Nightwalker. Who flat says you can't be revived.

So, really, if you have the tools, there is basically no way that death cannot be reversed. Except for a single creature, known to permanently kill people. Unless you have gone out of your way as the DM to either homebrew or destroy a corpse.

And again I ask you. Is it possible? Is it possible? Your only answer is Yes, under the normal rules.
And to avoid these fate, you have to use time travel, wishes and many shenanigans.
You assume that characters win every fight and never flee. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Character will flee and regroup. Sometimes, it means that the dead character is left behind. Leaving time to either being raised into an undead or simply rise as one. You can be swallowed, be still in the area of a fireball cast by friendly or unfriendly fire as you died. How many HP does a corpse have. A medium barrel has about 18 hp. A fireball will destroy it as it will destroy the corpse of your friend. That is unless you rule that dead character are totally immune to all damage. And that is assuming simple normal play. Once again, not every fight can be won. The dragon will not stop to use its breath because the corpse of a character happens to be there. Heck, that fire can melt armor! Imagine a single corpse. Or being swallowed, the purple worm isn't the only creature to swallow hole. There are some frogs that can do that too.

Faced with overwhelming odds, characters will flee, leaving their dead friend there. Unless that in your games, characters are so powerful that they never have to flee... It would explain a lot of things and positions you have.

Also
Once undead, your creature type is now undead. Be you a corpse, you will be revivified as what you were previously, an undead. Why do you think that such spells as raise dead specify it can not target undead type? Heck, to remove that fate, you need True Resurection. The only spell that specifies it!

Also, you said: You've also accused me of picking on your "weak" examples, when... I've addressed all your examples? Seems like a rather strange claim that I only picked on the ones easy to disprove, which was all the ones you pointed out."
Of course I will admit that my examples were weak. Not doing it would be disingenuous and flattly be bad faith. And I told you why: "I was not near my books". But the spirit of these examples are still relevant. Keep in mind that I do not fear being proven wrong when I am wrong. But this time, I am not. Death is truly the only thing that can be permanent. All the rest are just setbacks that will spring more adventures. These setbacks might be hard to swallow and accept. But they can be overcome. What does not kill you, makes you stronger has never been truer than in fantasy.

 

[Lanefan]

If your style of gameplay is exploitative, yes.

Do you think that a player being exploitative is an innocent and benign thing? That is absolutely NOT true. An exploitative player is being a jerk.

No they're not, they're being a player.

In any game, be it an RPG or something else, it's the player's duty to, within the rules, push for the optimal outcome...which in many games simply means playing to win. In an RPG, where win-loss conditions are much fuzzier if extant at all, it means pushing outward against the rules envelope until the rules or the DM pushes back. This falls squarely under "advocating for your character".

If the rules at your table say my character can't die then you've given me that "out", or loophole, and I'm going to exploit the hell out of it. No jerk-ness involved or required, just doing my duty as the player of a game.

Don't want me to exploit that loophole? Then don't give it to me.

If you are genuine and enthusiastic and communicate with me, acting as a team player and not a selfish jerk, I will support whatever you want to do to the ends of the Earth. I have gladly reworked classes, dug up third party materials, rewritten mechanics, and wholesale invented new subsystems purely to support the things my players find fun. I consider this part of my duty to them. Their joy is dependent on my willingness to help them, so I must do my best to support that joy.

If you  exploit that effort—if you treat me as a thing to be  used rather than a person to talk to and work with—then yes, I feel absolutely justified letting you hoist yourself on your own petard.

I don't treat the DM as a thing to be used but I do treat the game that way; and those are two very different things. The game is there for us all to use for whatever purpose we see fit, provided we all agree to play it; and in that is no different from Monopoly or Catan or ice hockey.

So, if you want to play someone reckless, awesome, I support that, though be forewarned that recklessness tends to lead to upset or frustrated players in the group, so it's best used in moderation. (This actually did come up in game: a player had put the party in legitimate danger multiple times because he chose to skip any talking phase and immediately draw his axes and start murderizing. We had an entirely respectful talk, he and I, and he agreed to tone it down a little.)

Where I love players like that!

But if you specifically throw yourself into lethal danger, taking objectively stupid risks solely because "well you said you wouldn't kill my character!" That's exploiting me. Don't do that.

Then don't say you won't kill my character. If you put no-character-death on the table you're explicitly asking for just this response, and have no-one to blame but yourself when that response comes rolling in.

You will be warned, once. After that? The actual consequences of your actions will be what they will be. If you get your character killed because you believed you could obviate any and all lethal risks due to me not killing characters, that's exploitative, no less than if someone tried to exploit rules that allowed a character to do infinite damage in a single hit.

Which also puts you in a tough spot, because you in fact will kill a character if you feel it's warranted; meaning at that point your bluff has been called and exposed as a bluff. Bang goes some trust around the table, I think.

Simpler, isn't it, to just leave death on the table as a possibility and have done with it?

 

[Lanefan]

I obviously can't change that, but again, it isn't like the world of DnD doesn't have MASSIVE amounts of resources for "not dying". It doesn't break verismilitude for me that the Chosen of God X is rescued from death by God X. It doesn't break Verismilitude that an archdevil reaches out to make a deal to a desperate soul. It doesn't break verismilitude that the dragon wants magically bound slaves instead of six corpses of unseasoned meat.

And with this, I agree.

It's when it happens every time, and-or when my character can't die no matter what I do, that it jumps the shark.

And, add to that, if you keep playing the game as normal this comes up like... twice a campaign if you have a long-running campaign. So, to me, it doesn't feel like "infinite plot armor" it feels like... you got lucky, but you can't count on that happening again. Death is rare enough as long as no one starts trying to suicide their character, that it isn't like every session a miracle happens.

To the bolded, I can only say sometimes.

Luck has its say, and usually quite loudly. I could run the same adventure three times with the same PCs (different players, obviously, so they wouldn't know the twists) and get three totally different outcomes due to luck (and, to some extent, approach) - one party might sail through, one might make a dlog of it but survive, and one might TPK.

 

[Lanefan]

"Rebuild" (if possible) does imply permanent change, and time travel just allows for the possibility of screwing things up even worse.

Yep! Been there, done that, done that, done that...

Sure. Though some people may strongly dislike having their avatar in the world maimed.

In that case, if they're at my table they're probably in the wrong place. I mean hell, it says right in the introduction that bad things not only can happen but will happen to your character(s). Can't get much clearer than that.

The only thing that's fully permanent is the end of the game, or campaign, or whatever term you want. Nothing else is. Sometimes that's PC death, sometimes that's PC failure, sometimes it's Real Life Getting in the Way.

TPKs are usually pretty permanent, in that most of the time whatever story that party was following dies out with them.

IME campaign ends are less permanent, as characters from a "dead" campaign have a habit of resurfacing later in "live" ones. (we interconnect some of our settings in part for just this reason)