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D&D General If not death, then what?

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
If the PCs allow the world to burn around them, it's the GM's fault when it burns up? That's what you seem to be saying--that no matter how much the PCs ignore the world, it's the GM's duty to keep coming up with stuff. Like, if the players run out of setting to save--because they didn't care enough about it to save it--isn't that the players' fault?
Look at any tvshow murdered by tv executives insisting on changes to make it more suitable for their advertisers as an example. The writers get blamed for a crappy plot. The actors get blames for acting in head scratching ways required to fit the demands of the execs. The execs throw the whole show under the rug blaming it for poor ratings poor response from fans & so on. When players show apathy until the gm throws up their hands saying they got nothing there is now a whole table of players saying things like
  • "yea bob ran a fun campaign for a while but it never really grabbed me"
  • "Yea bob's campaign went off the rails"
  • "I was hoping he could save it but I guess he just gave up and ended the campaign"
  • "GM'ing is a lot of work but you can always make up an adventure, bob just decided to stop"
Those reflect poorly on bob the GM.
 

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prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
Look at any tvshow murdered by tv executives insisting on changes to make it more suitable for their advertisers as an example. The writers get blamed for a crappy plot. The actors get blames for acting in head scratching ways required to fit the demands of the execs. The execs throw the whole show under the rug blaming it for poor ratings poor response from fans & so on. When players show apathy until the gm throws up their hands saying they got nothing there is now a whole table of players saying things like
  • "yea bob ran a fun campaign for a while but it never really grabbed me"
  • "Yea bob's campaign went off the rails"
  • "I was hoping he could save it but I guess he just gave up and ended the campaign"
  • "GM'ing is a lot of work but you can always make up an adventure, bob just decided to stop"
Those reflect poorly on bob the GM.
The thing about your TV show example is that everyone in the industry knows--or has an idea--what really happened, there. Like, when scripts get entered for various awards, it's the written scripts that are entered, not the episodes as aired. The fans may not have a clue, but ... their opinions don't really reflect on the work of the writers and cast and crew. I mean, the fans' opinion isn't going to keep those people from finding future work, necessarily.

The thing about your gaming example is that those players can plausibly find another GM, and the GM can probably find other players--I'm turning them away from my tables with some regularity. And maybe the apathetic players will find a GM who can keep stacking adventures as the PCs burn down the setting. Perhaps the GM will find non-apathetic players.

The thing about both your examples is that they're conflating what people say and think with who is really responsible. Apathetic players who burn down the setting (metaphorically, perhaps) and blame the GM for running out of things for them to do are ... in a word, wrong.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Ho you do not have the MToF... Animate dead can be cast by NPC as a simple action now. Buy the book. You'll see.
An other reason why I hate to see NPCs not performing under PC rules. But hey! And... beside your rebutal. Soooooo many undead creates other undead by killing that the point still stands. Make it a wraith, a wight, a ghast or whatever that transform a humanoid into undead the results are there. Stop nitpicking for the sake of it.

Dang! Got Ninja'd by @DND_Reborn ...

MToF has on page 264 a Necromancer wizard with the ability Summon Undead which says "The necromancer magically summons five skeletons or zombies". Nothing there about targetting corpses. So, own the book, actually read it, still doesn't do what you said.

And sure, maybe it could be a ghast instead... except Ghasts can't turn people into undead.

But wights can! See, if they are slain specifically by the Life Drain attack, not the sword from a double tap, and then... oh, wait. They become undead 24 hours later unless the humanoid is restored to life. Hmmm... revivify could still save them then.

But surely the Wraith can raise someone mid-combat like you said, right? YEs, they could use their action to summon a specter from the corpse by commanding the spirit. But, hmmm... what happens if you kill the specter? Then the target isn't undead (because their soul is freed by the undead being destroyed) and then... they could be revived using revivify.


But why would I possibly nitpick this? It isn't like someone went out of their way to say

Of course if you at your table change the rules, go ahead. But in this case, you are not using any rules that are in the PHB or DMG. You are houseruling. And do not get me wrong, houseruling is fine. But do not pretend it is playing as intended or written.

Then proceed to give a bunch of house rules that make death more permanent.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
For the characters? Only death can be permanent.

Kingdom destroyed? Its people dead and gone?
Nooooooooooooooo problems! Time travel is right there for you. Time travel is not in the rules? Well, check some adventures, read some books, I am confident that you will find examples, even in 5th edition mind you. You can also rebuild without those people.



Except for death, nothing can be made fully permanent. Even death can be circumvented with the right magic and if certain conditions are not met.

This is why death is and should be the ultimate thing to avoid. All the rests are just that, setbacks.

Did you seriously just try and say that only death is permanent because you can restore a kingdom via time travel?

Would it shock you to learn that time travel can ALSO reverse a dead character's fate? Because, you know, TIME TRAVEL!!

And as this gentleman said:

Yeah, I don't put much stock in the idea that my players don't care about the world. If I've done such a poor job world-building that no one cares about anything except gold and glory, I'd need to start a new campaign. Because gold and glory are both absolutely worthless.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I don't have any players in the campaigns I'm DMing who care that little about the game world, but I think I disagree with you that player apathy is the GM's fault.
It is a complicated issue. I think DMs bear a great deal of responsibility for fostering and supporting player engagement/enthusiasm. This is why I am such a huge advocate of "say yes" and the like. (I actually have a thread-discussion essay on the topic about half finished!)

Maybe a better way to say it is: while players are responsible for having enthusiasm to begin with, DMs are responsible for nurturing and encouraging that enthusiasm. Unwise DM actions can strangle enthusiasm before it leaves the cradle. That much, I think, is unequivocal.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Those only matter if the player cares about the world beyond the world's ability to provide the next adventure. In that case you have a string the gm can ignore while continuing on or pull to deliver themselves a self inflicted wound because if the world can't provide another adventure that failure falls to the gm not the player who does not care.
Then I, as DM, have failed, and the game should end.

If the players care nothing for the world we have built together, for the things and places and people they have come to know, then I have simply, totally failed them in my job as Dungeon Master. I have wasted every hour of preparation and every moment of improvisation on a dull, pointless, empty façade that is no more worthy to occupy my players' attention than the latest celebrity gossip. If my players truly neither love nor hate anything in that fictional space despite my efforts to connect with them and empower them to shape that world, then the game was already dead long before any concern of TPK factored in.

I would rather they tell me to my face that they so dislike playing my game, instead of trying to mask this hollow, empty play experience with such a desperate attempt to finally inject some worth or meaning into it. It would of course upset me greatly to know that I had wasted my players' time and effort so badly, and had inflicted upon them a surely tedious, overwrought, tiresome, long-winded nothing. But I would rather learn that so I could stop doing so.

Thankfully, I am fairly certain my players do not feel this way, or they are extremely good at deceiving me over it. I could hear the humble joy in the Druid's voice when Shen, the gold dragon, told him, "My friend, I could not be more proud of you." I could hear the seething hate in the Battlemaster's voice when he swore an oath to himself to defeat Jafar after the party learned of his meddling with a Jinnistani court they were working with. I could hear the delight in the Bard's voice when he got the chance to cooperate with the author of his Bestiary of Creatures Unusual to extend it for a second edition printing, with his own notes and illustrations added as official parts of the work. I could hear the awe in the Ranger's voice when he realized that his inheritance of his grandmother's Clan Chief title was a pittance compared to the true legacy that awaited him, if he had the ambition and wherewithal to but seize it.

My players keep coming back because they love the world we're building together. They are as driven by wanting to make that world better as they are by wanting to prevent it from getting worse, perhaps even more. And all I need do to make them feel loss is to hurt the people or places or things they care about.

To lose a character would suck, yes. To disappoint Shen? Oh, that would be so much worse. And if they did so so badly that he truly turned against them? It would break some of their characters, I think. The players would be upset, but the characters would lose their will to go on.

And that is what is worse than death. Living, when you believe that you no longer merit it. Because, as I said, referencing CS Lewis, there are some things which have no survival value, which are wholly unnecessary to live, but which give value to survival.

Because survival is worthless if it has nothing to give it worth. Merely being alive is not enough. We must find things (ideas, places, people, animals, even objects) which give survival its value. Otherwise, it's rather a lot of work, all this survival business.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Then I, as DM, have failed, and the game should end.

If the players care nothing for the world we have built together, for the things and places and people they have come to know, then I have simply, totally failed them in my job as Dungeon Master. I have wasted every hour of preparation and every moment of improvisation on a dull, pointless, empty façade that is no more worthy to occupy my players' attention than the latest celebrity gossip. If my players truly neither love nor hate anything in that fictional space despite my efforts to connect with them and empower them to shape that world, then the game was already dead long before any concern of TPK factored in.

I would rather they tell me to my face that they so dislike playing my game, instead of trying to mask this hollow, empty play experience with such a desperate attempt to finally inject some worth or meaning into it. It would of course upset me greatly to know that I had wasted my players' time and effort so badly, and had inflicted upon them a surely tedious, overwrought, tiresome, long-winded nothing. But I would rather learn that so I could stop doing so.


Thankfully, I am fairly certain my players do not feel this way, or they are extremely good at deceiving me over it. I could hear the humble joy in the Druid's voice when Shen, the gold dragon, told him, "My friend, I could not be more proud of you." I could hear the seething hate in the Battlemaster's voice when he swore an oath to himself to defeat Jafar after the party learned of his meddling with a Jinnistani court they were working with. I could hear the delight in the Bard's voice when he got the chance to cooperate with the author of his Bestiary of Creatures Unusual to extend it for a second edition printing, with his own notes and illustrations added as official parts of the work. I could hear the awe in the Ranger's voice when he realized that his inheritance of his grandmother's Clan Chief title was a pittance compared to the true legacy that awaited him, if he had the ambition and wherewithal to but seize it.

My players keep coming back because they love the world we're building together. They are as driven by wanting to make that world better as they are by wanting to prevent it from getting worse, perhaps even more. And all I need do to make them feel loss is to hurt the people or places or things they care about.

To lose a character would suck, yes. To disappoint Shen? Oh, that would be so much worse. And if they did so so badly that he truly turned against them? It would break some of their characters, I think. The players would be upset, but the characters would lose their will to go on.

And that is what is worse than death. Living, when you believe that you no longer merit it. Because, as I said, referencing CS Lewis, there are some things which have no survival value, which are wholly unnecessary to live, but which give value to survival.

Because survival is worthless if it has nothing to give it worth. Merely being alive is not enough. We must find things (ideas, places, people, animals, even objects) which give survival its value. Otherwise, it's rather a lot of work, all this survival business.
Caring about the world or not has nothing to do with enjoying the game being run. They enjoy showing up to hang out with people & live out a self insert power fantasy but the world better be as thin compliant & molded to their Main Character without expectating anything but kill stuff.

Don't forget that these players are relevant because all of the other stuff aside from pcs getting killed will never matter to them so it's gone from "a good gm will find stuff other than death the player cares about" to "the gm failed if the player does not and would never care about stuff other than death". In past editions with higher lethality & more reasons to need magic items there were mechanical things that mattered, but then 5e had other ideas leaving the gm with less room & fewer tools to craft things the player would care about.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Caring about the world or not has nothing to do with enjoying the game being run.
As far as I'm concerned, it does. If you don't care about the world then I see no point in running the game. Someone else can run something. I put in too much effort, alongside my players, to build a world worth caring about. If that is not the case, all that effort is wasted and I cannot in good conscience attempt to run a game for folks who could not care less about the world they play in. It would be worse than trying to run a game for villain PCs; at least with villains, I would still be offering them things they care about, it just wouldn't be a good product because I would be unenthusiastic about crafting it. With truly apathetic players, literally nothing I am interested in doing would be valuable to them. We may as well pull the plug, because the campaign died long ago and the husk it left behind cannot be saved.
 

MToF has on page 264 a Necromancer wizard with the ability Summon Undead which says "The necromancer magically summons five skeletons or zombies". Nothing there about targetting corpses. So, own the book, actually read it, still doesn't do what you said.

And sure, maybe it could be a ghast instead... except Ghasts can't turn people into undead.

But wights can! See, if they are slain specifically by the Life Drain attack, not the sword from a double tap, and then... oh, wait. They become undead 24 hours later unless the humanoid is restored to life. Hmmm... revivify could still save them then.

But surely the Wraith can raise someone mid-combat like you said, right? YEs, they could use their action to summon a specter from the corpse by commanding the spirit. But, hmmm... what happens if you kill the specter? Then the target isn't undead (because their soul is freed by the undead being destroyed) and then... they could be revived using revivify.


But why would I possibly nitpick this? It isn't like someone went out of their way to say



Then proceed to give a bunch of house rules that make death more permanent.

Wraith:
Create Specter. The wraith targets a humanoid within 10 feet
of it that has been dead for no longer than 1 minute and died
violently. The target's spirit rises as a specter in the space of
its corpse or in the nearest unoccupied space. The specter is
under the wraith's control. The wraith can have no more than
seven specters under its control at one time.

Night Walker:
Life Eater. A creature reduced to 0 hit points from damage
d ealt by the nightwalker d ies and can't be revived by any means
short of a wish spell .

Son of Kyuss
Burrowing Worm. A worm launches from the spawn of Kyuss
at one humanoid that the spawn can see within 10 feet of it.
The worm latches onto the target's skin unless the target succeeds
on a DC 11 Dexterity saving throw. The worm is a Tiny
undead with AC 6, 1 hit point, a 2 (-4) in every ability score,
and a speed of l foot. While on the target's skin, the worm can
be killed by normal means or scraped off using an action (the
spawn can use this action to launch a scraped-off worm at a
humanoid it can see within 10 feet of the worm). Otherwise,
the worm burrows under the target's skin at the end of the
target's next turn, dealing 1 piercing damage to it. At the end
of each of its turns thereafter, the target takes 7 (2d6) necrotic
damage per worm infesting it (maximum of 10d6). A worm-infested
target dies if it drops to O hit points, then rises 10 minutes
later as a spawn of Kyuss.
If a worm-infested creature is
targeted by an effect that cures disease or removes a curse, all
the worms infesting it wither away.

Yes, creating undead can be long, or short. But it does not change the fact that a character can be animated as an undead. Incinerated, put into acid and what not. And this is assuming the group fled or was killed. What if your healer does not have a revivify spell available in the allotted time?

And Orcus can cast Animate dead as an action.
You conveniently ignored the Nabassu that if it kills a humanoid, that humanoid immediately rises as ghoul. Or the Devourer, Corpse flower. When I am near my books I can be much more precise. The intent is simply to say that if you get to be animated as an undead, no matter how. You're character is toast. That much is obvious per RAW and RAI. You picked the weak examples I gave because it was easy to debunk but you failed to prove that it could not be done.

And check the Vecna our dear friends at WoTC provided us with. Animate dead at will... So yep it can be done and if you go the 3PP, you'll get even more of these and these are sanctioned by WoTC as they are on DMSGuild and are used by a lot of tables.

Finally, the goal is not to say that you can not save a character from death but that there are occasions where said death is irrevocable.
 


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