D&D General If not death, then what?

[Chaosmancer]

Depends on the circumstances.
But again, a curse can be removed. A limb replaced or regrown. A lost kingdom can be fought over and won back. A loved one can be raised from the dead or you might fight for its soul. But if you permanently die before you can do those thing, you truly reach tragedy. All the rests are "relatively minor" setbacks. You still get a chance to have a shot at it. With perma death, as in my post #279, you lost. It sucks for sure, that is why you must strive not to die. You want to still have your shot at whatever goal you have. All hope is not lost. But if you are permanently dead. All hope is lost.

And death can be reversed via magic (Yes, I read your post). Or you could just abandon all the things you have cared about, make a new character, and keep playing the game.

It is like you have taken "no tragedy is permanent over time" and played that out that no tragedy MATTERS unless it is possible to make it permanent. Curses can be removed, but that can be just as hard as using magic to reverse death. Kingdoms can be rebuilt, but you cannot possibly restore the lives of hundreds of people lost, you cannot trivially retake the land, like you could fairly trivially bring back the dead with Raise Dead. And, again, I read your post. But unless every death is someone getting eaten by Purple Worms or disintegrated, then most of what would kill you isn't going to destroy the body to the point you can't be revived. But you can't use magic and a few hundred gold to remove the power-up the villain got because they defeated you and got the holy relic, forever corrupting it.

And it is blindingly infuriating to keep hearing you refer to moments of tragedy, of loss, of deep personal pain as "relatively minor setbacks". It comes across as dismissive at best.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Cleric dies to a skeletons, second skeleton double taps as per the order it gets and the following henchmen, a guard finishes the cleric. Comes the Necromancer's turn and he raises the cleric as a zombie. That cleric is toasted. Dead forever. Not only did the group lost its cleric, but it will not have the money to ever raise him from the death as the only solutions are two level 9 spells! Death, in this case and in many others can and should be final. This is according to the rules. And in this case, the necro is played not only according to what he should do, but also in how he would act RP wise, Tactically wise and exactly how a player would have played if it would have been him running that necro. It removes a foe from being raised. It adds a new threat to the group and removes potential healing from the group. Three major gains that might ensure the Necro's victory. I play monsters and foes with deadly efficiency. Stupid monsters are played stupidly as they should be. But intelligent monsters and foes will act according to their capacity and understanding of what the characters and their ally can, might and have shown to be able to do.

Weird, my copy of the rules says Animate Dead takes a full minute to cast. Since when do Necromancer's get to break the rules of the game, to by RAW prove that death is permanent?

Or maybe, in your rush to prove your point you are just forgetting some details? Because clearly the player wouldn't have tried to cheat you by miscasting the spell.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Something I thought of and if people already said it, I'll just reinforce the idea. If people don't like it, no worries, just tossing it into the mix:

For "no death" games:

OPTION 1:

IF you use inspiration (a lot of games don't), you can expend 1 point (or maybe all?) of Inspiration to avoid death. Instead, you are stable at 0 hit points.

If you don't use inspiration or have none, you gain a -1 "death penalty" each time you die. You can remove a point by spending inspiration or in a similar fashion. Alternatively, you could remove one point each time you finish a long rest.

OPTION 2:

"If not death, then what?" UNDEATH!

DEATH has taken a holiday. If a creature dies and its body remains, it becomes undead. A zombie, most likely, but other forms are possible; whatever fits. The PC then assume the undead creature type and is subject to all the good and bad that goes with it.

Your PC can still be "destroyed" (i.e. no body), but it becomes rarer and harder to happen.

I've actually been developing a campaign/setting concept around option #2.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Weird, my copy of the rules says Animate Dead takes a full minute to cast. Since when do Necromancer's get to break the rules of the game, to by RAW prove that death is permanent?

The new VECNA?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yes, there is death. It is the only thing. Remove the "s" at things like I did and we finally reached an agreement.

All other setbacks can be overcome. Always. Might be hard, you might fail. But they can be. There are some death that can't be overcome.

The burden of proof lies upon you to show that this is the only way. Unless and until you do so, you have no more than "because Helldritch said so," and while I respect your opinion, it is hardly fact.

Prove to me that death is the only permanent thing. Otherwise, you're just repeatedly asserting something and expecting me to accept it uncritically.

 

[James Gasik]

I guess you could always give players a 50% chance to not die at this time, but suffer some other setback, as it burns up their "karma" to survive.

 

[Helldritch]

Weird, my copy of the rules says Animate Dead takes a full minute to cast. Since when do Necromancer's get to break the rules of the game, to by RAW prove that death is permanent?

Or maybe, in your rush to prove your point you are just forgetting some details? Because clearly the player wouldn't have tried to cheat you by miscasting the spell.

Ho you do not have the MToF... Animate dead can be cast by NPC as a simple action now. Buy the book. You'll see.
An other reason why I hate to see NPCs not performing under PC rules. But hey! And... beside your rebutal. Soooooo many undead creates other undead by killing that the point still stands. Make it a wraith, a wight, a ghast or whatever that transform a humanoid into undead the results are there. Stop nitpicking for the sake of it.

Dang! Got Ninja'd by @DND_Reborn ...

 

[Helldritch]

The burden of proof lies upon you to show that this is the only way. Unless and until you do so, you have no more than "because Helldritch said so," and while I respect your opinion, it is hardly fact.

Prove to me that death is the only permanent thing. Otherwise, you're just repeatedly asserting something and expecting me to accept it uncritically.

You have seen the proofs, but you do not accept them. I have shown you. But won't hear any of the facts because you do not want to acknowledge that by the rules, only death can be permanent. You do you.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Dang! Got Ninja'd by @DND_Reborn ...

You must be quick grasshopper!

 

[prabe]

You have seen the proofs, but you do not accept them. I have shown you. But won't hear any of the facts because you do not want to acknowledge that by the rules, only death can be permanent. You do you.

One character's death can be but a temporary setback for the party, and even a TPK doesn't necessarily prevent another party from accomplishing the same goal. That's leaving aside the possibilities of raise dead or resurrection, which make death ... not inherently permanent.

Failing to accomplish a goal--having whatever consequence of failure happen--can and arguably should be irrevocable. That Bad Thing you were trying to prevent, you didn't prevent. The world is permanently scarred. For some people, having their character/s live to see the Bad Things happen would be worse than having them die. For others, the possibility of redemption--the possibility of mitigating That Bad Thing, or preventing it from getting worse--would be worth playing on.