Dragonlance WotC Officially Confirms Takhisis and Tiamat Are The Same

It's been an issue in dispute for decades, over various editions of D&D, but WotC has officially confirmed that - at least in 5E - Dragonlance's Takhisis is, indeed, currently Tiamat. In previous editions, Tiamat has varied from being a big dragon to a minor goddess, while Takhisis has been a greater god on Krynn. At times they've been the same entity, and at others different entities. Today, WotC is putting its foot down and saying that Takhisis and Tiamat are, indeed, the same being.



Of course, this is not an opinion universally held. Dragonlance co-creator Margaret Weis emphatically stated that "TAKHISIS IS NOT TIAMAT, DAMN IT!"

Fizban's Treasuryof Dragons confirms that the beings echo across various settings.

D&D 5E - Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the...

www.enworld.org

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Has anyone seen anywhere where Weis or Hickman state why Takhisis LOOKS like Tiamat? I know they've explained their 'no orcs' in DL, and I totally like and dig that, but... It seems like Takhisis and Paladine are more than just physically identical to Tiamat and Bahumat to me. Just curious

it wasn't them it was the DM Jeff Grubb on the Gods of Krynn - Dragonlance Nexus

The big thing to keep in mind for the Original Toril Gods (Yeah, we took the name of the campaign and glued it onto Forgotten Realms’ planet) is that they were only a base from which the gods of Dragonlance evolved. So you know the time frame we’re talking about, these gods showed up in my campaign when I was using the original ” little pamphlets” of D&D (The wood-grained box, Greyhawk, Blackmoor, and Eldritch Wizardry), combined with some of the early DRAGON magazines.

Paladine (by whatever name) – Draco Paladin in my campaign, and was the Platinum Dragon as described in the Greyhawk supplement (I think he gained the Bahamut name when he showed up in the first AD&D Monster Manual). When Trace was doing the original forging of Krynn, I tossed him my campaign’s godhead and he easily folded it into his mix. Draco Paladin became Paladine. He was the Paladin’s God in my campaign, and venerated by Fenetar the Paladin, run by Frank Dickos, the player who was the one who convinced me to set down my godhead in the first place.

Takhisis – Draco Cerebus in my campaign, the Chromatic Dragon, Tiamat. Draco Cerebus also went by the name Draco Cerebrint in my campaign (I think the name change came about because of the sudden appearance of a short, grey aardvark in the comics). Don’t know where Trace got the name Takhisis (May be Indonesian – Neraka definitely is) but part of his decision to rename was to separate DL’s cosmology from Greyhawk’s. (Another possibility – when I built my mythology (a time when Trace was first playing as well) neither Bahamut nor Tiamat were so named in the game books- so the idea of creating new versions of them unique to DL would not be too far a reach)). Draco-Cerebus may have had the anti-paladin as followers, but that class came and left from my campaign several times.

 

[Storyteller Hero]

Copy-pasta from a reply I gave on Reddit on a similar topic:

First off, it's worth noting that every edition is its own canon according to WotC.

Second, if you want to combine the lore and try to make sense of it, aspects of deities can be divided into two categories: convergent and divergent.

Convergent aspects are the typical avatars, sharing a consciousness with the originals.

Divergent aspects are split off from the originals, possessing their own personalities and wills.

As such, the potentially conflicting timelines of Tiamat and Takhisis can be explained by Takhisis being a divergent aspect of Tiamat.

This is made possible by the quasi-conceptual/spiritual/physical nature of deities' bodies.

Tymora and Beshaba for example were created when Tyche was split into two.

Marduk, aspect of Bahamut, has a different faith and divine realm from Bahamut in 2e On Hallowed Ground.

 

[Mecheon]

But I will insert into your mind that Tiamat sounds like a place where they wash aunts.

Nah, Tiamat deserves to stand on her own as a more ambiguous figure, associated with the ocean, divorced for the whole, D&D side of her

Tahksis can keep being a 5 headed dragon, Tiamat can go off and do her own thing

 

[Osgood]

Margaret Weis: “Tiamat and Takhisis are completely different… Tiamat has the golden arches, Takhisis has the golden arcs... Tiamat has the Big Mac, Takhisis has the Big Mic…”

​

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

"No see, Tiamat's heads from left to right are Black, Green, Red, Blue, White, whereas Takhisis's heads are Black, Blue, Red, Green, White - totally different."

 

[pukunui]

I will say that I've generally thought of Takhisis as more of a sentient being with a personality and goals (and a human-like avatar), whereas Tiamat always strikes me as a big monster that just wants to eat everyone and burn everything and doesn't ever bother to talk.

 

[Tonguez]

Plus, I always associated them as the same since Tahksis was Tiamat with the serial number filed off anyway. Or was it the other way around?

That seems perfectly suited to an embodiment of Primordial Chaos

 

[Kai Lord]

We need to be clear that Dragonlance never was and never has been solely Weis & Hickman's creation. They may have their own vision for it, but that doesn't make it the authoritative vision for the setting. The setting grew out of Jeff Brub's home game. He provided the basis of the gods and their conflict and he said they were definitely the Platinum Dragon and the Chromatic Dragon. The name Paladin was a direct rip-off of the name Jeff provide, but the name Takhisis was indeed Weis & Hickman's. There was an article posted here fairly recently about this. If I can find the link I will add it.

Edit: It wasn't this forum, Jeff Grub interview

Additionally, there was a whole team involved in the RPG product (including artist) that influenced the setting. I find it a bit insulting that they (Weis & Hickman) continue to disrespect all the effort others have put into the setting and claim it as their own. The wrote lot of novels in the setting and contributed a lot of lore, but they are not the sole creators nor the arbiter's of Dragonlance lore.

Thanks for posting that interview. So now we have Jeff Grubb also confirming that the Dark Queen in official Dragonlance was deliberately separated from both the generic Greyhawk Chromatic Dragon (before she was named Tiamat) and Tiamat herself.

 

[Remathilis]

This isn't anything new. Us Planescape cutters have known the dark of that chant for decades.

 

[Illithidbix]

Whilst one Five-headed-Chromatic-Dragon-Queen Goddess is of course rather similar to another Five-headed-Chromatic-Dragon-Queen Goddess.

I always felt Takhisis had more of a unique identity as the Queen of the Evil Gods and somewhat of a different personality to Tiamat as she is portrayed in 'Realms and other D&D settings.
Esp. given that in the Realms/"Generic Setting"* Tiamat seems just trapped and angrily brooding on Avernus, possibly having a #LadyBoss off vs Zariel.
Same with Paladine vs Bahamut and the unique cosmology of Kyrnn in general.


*I am still a tad confused if 5E lore is meant to be FR or more generic these days.

And lets not go down this rabbit hole. Tiamat

Inconsistencies
The adventure The Throne of Bloodstone depicts Tiamat being slain by Gareth Dragonsbane and his party on the instructions of Bahamut, as her heart was needed to destroy the Wand of Orcus. As originally written, this adventure took place in 1148 DR, too early for Dragonsbane to be included in the modern Forgotten Realms. The date was thus retconned to 1359 DR in Dragons of Faerûn and The Grand History of the Realms.



Faiths and Avatars suggested several theories for the survival of Tiamat: that the actual dragon slain was Takhisis (a deity from a different Crystal sphere), that a deity can only truly be slain on their home plane (unless they are stripped of their divinity, as happened during The Time of Troubles) and so Tiamat simply reappeared later, or that Dragonsbane simply slew a different multi-headed dragon or even an imposter. Dragons of Faerûn ultimately clarified the Dragonsbane party merely destroyed an avatar. Although Tiamat's avatar was also slain by Gilgeam, this indicates the death of the avatar did not destroy the god it belongs to, merely slow its plans for a time.