Who Actually Has Time for Bloated Adventures?

[UngainlyTitan]

IMO, those claims are vastly overstated. 5e is probably the least accessible to new DMs of any edition I've played since I began in 1989.
I'll count the ways.
1. Largely terrible prewritten adventures.
2. No meaningful guidance for treasure awards.
3. Awful encounter building guidance.
4. Meaningless tactical options.
5. Befuddling action economy.
6. No way to address PC power creep.
7. Black holes in rules content.

And yes, some of the older editions had no guidance at all for some of these issues, but I'd argue that no tool at all is preferable than a broken tool.

Ok! I gotta ask, you were on these forums before to complain about badly written adventures and the work you had to put in to prepare them for use, this was about WoTC adventures and now you are making a similar complaint about Pathfinder APs. So, why are running prewritten adventures if they are not making your life easier?

Now I do not know if you are posting just to vent and advice and commentary is not welcome. If so feel free to ignore the rest of this post.
All AP style adventures have similar issues in that the party has to meet the DM half way but I regard that as part of the table social contract. If the players want a sandbox they should make that clear.

I would really recommend the book "The Return of the Lazy Dungeon Master" by Mike Shea, the best book of DM advice ever in my opinion.

 

[Retreater]

Ok! I gotta ask, you were on these forums before to complain about badly written adventures and the work you had to put in to prepare them for use, this was about WoTC adventures and now you are making a similar complaint about Pathfinder APs. So, why are running prewritten adventures if they are not making your life easier?

There are a few factors...
1. Until very recently, I was running 3 weekly campaigns. Now it's down to 2. That left little time to prepare games. Couple that with a promotion at work, taking on a foster teenager, and I just don't have a lot of time. Any help I can get is appreciated, but I want it simpler - not more complex.
2. Players don't want to play my homebrew anyway. You can sell players on trying the latest Pathfinder AP or Curse of Strahd for 5e. Playing an original adventure written by me? They're not interested.
3. Until very recently I didn't have the confidence to design my own Pathfinder encounters. (I still don't for 5e, since I don't have the WotC "magic formula".)

 

[payn]

2. Players don't want to play my homebrew anyway. You can sell players on trying the latest Pathfinder AP or Curse of Strahd for 5e. Playing an original adventure written by me? They're not interested.

Same. I have always been envious of homebrewers and their ability to get their players to give a sh@#.

 

[Retreater]

Same. I have always been envious of homebrewers and their ability to get their players to give a sh@#.

For some players I have, it's a special badge of honor to say they defeated Strahd to their friends. Not as much to say they faced the horrors of Countess Elisabeth, the Maiden of Blood.
As GMs we work against the marketing machines of big companies, and our stuff can seem "off brand."

 

[Jd Smith1]

There are a few factors...
2. Players don't want to play my homebrew anyway. You can sell players on trying the latest Pathfinder AP or Curse of Strahd for 5e. Playing an original adventure written by me? They're not interested.

Have you tried online? I run on Roll20, playing very niche games, and great players are very easy to come by.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

There are a few factors...
1. Until very recently, I was running 3 weekly campaigns. Now it's down to 2. That left little time to prepare games. Couple that with a promotion at work, taking on a foster teenager, and I just don't have a lot of time. Any help I can get is appreciated, but I want it simpler - not more complex.

I cannot imagine Pathfinder as simpler but I take it that your players would not be interested in actual simpler D&D like systems.

2. Players don't want to play my homebrew anyway. You can sell players on trying the latest Pathfinder AP or Curse of Strahd for 5e. Playing an original adventure written by me? They're not interested.

What about shorter adventures? Or reskinned classics, I have found that some of the classics work well, particularly at lower levels. Where they often fall down are those adventure that rely on environmental effects.

3. Until very recently I didn't have the confidence to design my own Pathfinder encounters. (I still don't for 5e, since I don't have the WotC "magic formula".)

Yes 5e advice is poor. In 5e APs I would often just bring in the nearby enemies to a fight once one is started and would only hand tune the boss fights.

 

[Retreater]

I cannot imagine Pathfinder as simpler but I take it that your players would not be interested in actual simpler D&D like systems.

Pathfinder 2e is simpler for a different side of the brain. I know I can run encounters and know they basically fit the challenge that I want. I know there are rules for most situations, and I don't have to make up stuff and try to be consistent with my house rules. Pathfinder is a stable system. However, sometimes it's too much to remember. Sometimes I want battles of attrition instead of fully healed between encounters. Sometimes I don't want to itemize the magic items of characters to make sure everyone has the +1's the system requires.

D&D 5e puts all of that on the DM, with nearly no help at all. I'm designing encounters, stories, fine tuning each encounter, explaining the nitpicky action economy (10 years down the road - still doesn't make sense to some players. Swear to Batman it's the Attack of Opportunity of 5e), trying to make the monsters fun and tactically interesting, etc.

My in-person group of 7 players have shot down attempts to run simpler systems. (They are currently playing 5e.)

My other group (online) are doing the PF2e AP that I'm complaining about as "bloated."

What about shorter adventures? Or reskinned classics, I have found that some of the classics work well, particularly at lower levels. Where they often fall down are those adventure that rely on environmental effects.

The 5e group is fine for the time (we're doing Curse of Strahd). I'm not overwhelmed by it because I basically understand the story and its villain. (Something that is absent in most PF APs I've seen.) In fact, I'd say that the adventures from 5e I like the best are the ones with a simple story and compelling villain (Curse of Strahd, Tomb of Annihilation.)
But I don't trust my knowledge to reskin classic adventures to 5e (or especially, PF2 - and that campaign is the squeaky wheel at the moment.)

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Pathfinder 2e is simpler for a different side of the brain. I know I can run encounters and know they basically fit the challenge that I want. I know there are rules for most situations, and I don't have to make up stuff and try to be consistent with my house rules. Pathfinder is a stable system. However, sometimes it's too much to remember. Sometimes I want battles of attrition instead of fully healed between encounters. Sometimes I don't want to itemize the magic items of characters to make sure everyone has the +1's the system requires.

D&D 5e puts all of that on the DM, with nearly no help at all. I'm designing encounters, stories, fine tuning each encounter, explaining the nitpicky action economy (10 years down the road - still doesn't make sense to some players. Swear to Batman it's the Attack of Opportunity of 5e), trying to make the monsters fun and tactically interesting, etc.

My in-person group of 7 players have shot down attempts to run simpler systems. (They are currently playing 5e.)

My other group (online) are doing the PF2e AP that I'm complaining about as "bloated."


The 5e group is fine for the time (we're doing Curse of Strahd). I'm not overwhelmed by it because I basically understand the story and its villain. (Something that is absent in most PF APs I've seen.) In fact, I'd say that the adventures from 5e I like the best are the ones with a simple story and compelling villain (Curse of Strahd, Tomb of Annihilation.)
But I don't trust my knowledge to reskin classic adventures to 5e (or especially, PF2 - and that campaign is the squeaky wheel at the moment.)

7 players for 5e, suddenly I understand. I have watched Critical Role and 7 players are astoundingly resilient, my gut reaction would be double everything, they will be fine. Probably more than fine. 5e APs are tuned for 4 or 5 players and undertuned at that. I also would not fine tune every encounter.
You should have a look at some of the boss fights in Critical Role, Particularly the Dragon fights in the Chroma Conclave arc for the first series. I can dig out the episode numbers if you are interested.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

The first minute and a half of this has some really good advice.

 

[TwoSix]

Same. I have always been envious of homebrewers and their ability to get their players to give a sh@#.

D&D culture shock is real. I've never met a player who actually preferred to be playing in an "official" module.