D&D (2024) Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?

[Incenjucar]

We are on the internet, so it should be rather easy to look up any claims we might make about how far away an archer can hit a bullseye, though we should also keep in mind we're talking fantasy characters.

 

[Stalker0]

We are on the internet, so it should be rather easy to look up any claims we might make about how far away an archer can hit a bullseye, though we should also keep in mind we're talking fantasy characters.

Here's a good summary of some key numbers:

Spoiler

I'm going to amend the question to fill in some gaps.

From how far away could an experienced and skilled archer hit and seriously wound a man?

This removes things like target arrows and light draw bows which are more accurate but less effective.

You didn't specify a particular society or type of bow leaving a pretty broad swath of bows and styles to consider. Despite the "middle ages" and "ancient-history" tags, I'm going to consider both historical and modern bows. Modern advances like compound bows (developed in the 1960s), counter weights, bow sights and modern materials are helpful and will serve to push the range up.

I will also assume the person isn't wearing more than normal clothing. If you want to get into penetrating armor with an arrow, that's another question. Most soldiers on a medieval battlefield would be wearing padded or leather armor at most.

I've done everything in metric. As a crib for the Imperialists, 1 meter is about 1 yard.

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Getting an upper bound

First, because people have been throwing around answers like 350m and 500m (?!) let's go for an upper bound: Olympic archers are the best we'll ever do. They're the best trained, under perfect conditions, and they're using extremely accurate, but combat ineffective, Olympic bows. These have a fairly light draw, 20kg, and very light, very fast, and very narrow arrows. I'm not saying you'd want to get hit by an Olympic archer, it would hurt a lot, but they'd be ineffective in combat. Point is, this is the best we can possibly do.

An Olympic archer can reliably put an arrow into a 12cm ring at 70m. A man sized target is about 3 times as large. Apparent target size is directly proportional to distance. Ignoring the problems of wind and arrow drop we can put our upper bound at about 200m.

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Bow Hunting

Now what can a more average shooter do in combat conditions (noise, smoke, wind, exhaustion, moving target, getting shot at...) and firing lethal arrows. For that let's look at people who already do this bow hunters. Bow hunters have their own competitions called Field Archery and from this we can glean a reasonable expectation of accuracy. Wikipedia claims bow hunters will fire at about 15m, with the maximum being about 40m, but it's based on one graph. A bow hunter wants to make sure they hit on the first try, else they're scare their game, and the game will be moving, even if not very fast, so this is probably the most realistic number.

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Field Archery Competitions

We can look at the rules of International Field Archery for their expectations. Certain Field Archery competitions are closer to what you'd experience in combat, in particular "IFAA 3-D Hunting" uses animal sized targets placed at unmarked distances. The archer does not know how far away the target is. The maximum distance a target can be placed is 60 meters. This target is 23cm x 37cm wide approximating a man sized target.

Similarly, in the "Hunter Round", the maximum distance is 70m but firing at a 65cm target, twice the width of a man. Man-sized 35cm targets are fired at from ~30m.

The International Field Archery Association has a "Historical Bows" category which defines them as "based on the accepted design and usage during the period preceding the year 1900". They make no change to the targets for historical bow competition.

The effect of historical vs modern bows can be seen in the 2014 Tournament Results. The best scores with historical bows (AFHB and AMHB, Adult Male/Female Historical Bow) are routinely lower than the worst scores with modern bows. This could reflect the inaccuracy of historical bows, or it could reflect the smaller talent pool of historical bowman.

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Conclusion

Based on all this, I can draw these conclusions about a human with a bow hitting a man sized target using a modern bow.

• The absolute maximum range by the best human with the best equipment is about 200m.
• A skilled, experienced archer can hit a stationary target reliably at 30 to 60m.
• The same skilled bowman will prefer 10 to 20m for a moving target.

These are numbers for a modern bow. They should be considered upper bounds for a historical archer who would not have access to modern technology to improve their aim.

Summary: Absolute maximum range under the most perfect of conditions is ~650 feet. An experience hunter type archer (that is good enough for big competitions and much closer to actual "combat conditions") can hit ~200 feet for a stationary target, and ~65 feet on a moving target.

As this is modern bows and not "historic bows", using this numbers already adds a "fantasy edge" to give our fantasy warriors a bit of a boost. So yeah I would argue that giving bows a range of 200 feet under normal circumstances, and then adding in a special rule to triple that for "very special perfect sniper circumstances" would not only be very accurate with real numbers, but also would remove a big part of why combat boards can't handle "long combat distances".

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I do not particularly want realism in my D&D combat. The real world can be pretty random as to who lives and who dies and it not really an experience I want back in D&D. Especially since I am sure I can find deadly rpgs that do a better job of it, if I look.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Here's a good summary of some key numbers:

Spoiler

I'm going to amend the question to fill in some gaps.


This removes things like target arrows and light draw bows which are more accurate but less effective.

You didn't specify a particular society or type of bow leaving a pretty broad swath of bows and styles to consider. Despite the "middle ages" and "ancient-history" tags, I'm going to consider both historical and modern bows. Modern advances like compound bows (developed in the 1960s), counter weights, bow sights and modern materials are helpful and will serve to push the range up.

I will also assume the person isn't wearing more than normal clothing. If you want to get into penetrating armor with an arrow, that's another question. Most soldiers on a medieval battlefield would be wearing padded or leather armor at most.

I've done everything in metric. As a crib for the Imperialists, 1 meter is about 1 yard.

---

Getting an upper bound

First, because people have been throwing around answers like 350m and 500m (?!) let's go for an upper bound: Olympic archers are the best we'll ever do. They're the best trained, under perfect conditions, and they're using extremely accurate, but combat ineffective, Olympic bows. These have a fairly light draw, 20kg, and very light, very fast, and very narrow arrows. I'm not saying you'd want to get hit by an Olympic archer, it would hurt a lot, but they'd be ineffective in combat. Point is, this is the best we can possibly do.

An Olympic archer can reliably put an arrow into a 12cm ring at 70m. A man sized target is about 3 times as large. Apparent target size is directly proportional to distance. Ignoring the problems of wind and arrow drop we can put our upper bound at about 200m.

---

Bow Hunting

Now what can a more average shooter do in combat conditions (noise, smoke, wind, exhaustion, moving target, getting shot at...) and firing lethal arrows. For that let's look at people who already do this bow hunters. Bow hunters have their own competitions called Field Archery and from this we can glean a reasonable expectation of accuracy. Wikipedia claims bow hunters will fire at about 15m, with the maximum being about 40m, but it's based on one graph. A bow hunter wants to make sure they hit on the first try, else they're scare their game, and the game will be moving, even if not very fast, so this is probably the most realistic number.

---

Field Archery Competitions

We can look at the rules of International Field Archery for their expectations. Certain Field Archery competitions are closer to what you'd experience in combat, in particular "IFAA 3-D Hunting" uses animal sized targets placed at unmarked distances. The archer does not know how far away the target is. The maximum distance a target can be placed is 60 meters. This target is 23cm x 37cm wide approximating a man sized target.

Similarly, in the "Hunter Round", the maximum distance is 70m but firing at a 65cm target, twice the width of a man. Man-sized 35cm targets are fired at from ~30m.

The International Field Archery Association has a "Historical Bows" category which defines them as "based on the accepted design and usage during the period preceding the year 1900". They make no change to the targets for historical bow competition.

The effect of historical vs modern bows can be seen in the 2014 Tournament Results. The best scores with historical bows (AFHB and AMHB, Adult Male/Female Historical Bow) are routinely lower than the worst scores with modern bows. This could reflect the inaccuracy of historical bows, or it could reflect the smaller talent pool of historical bowman.

---

Conclusion

Based on all this, I can draw these conclusions about a human with a bow hitting a man sized target using a modern bow.

• The absolute maximum range by the best human with the best equipment is about 200m.
• A skilled, experienced archer can hit a stationary target reliably at 30 to 60m.
• The same skilled bowman will prefer 10 to 20m for a moving target.

These are numbers for a modern bow. They should be considered upper bounds for a historical archer who would not have access to modern technology to improve their aim.

Summary: Absolute maximum range under the most perfect of conditions is ~650 feet. An experience hunter type archer (that is good enough for big competitions and much closer to actual "combat conditions") can hit ~200 feet for a stationary target, and ~65 feet on a moving target.

As this is modern bows and not "historic bows", using this numbers already adds a "fantasy edge" to give our fantasy warriors a bit of a boost. So yeah I would argue that giving bows a range of 200 feet under normal circumstances, and then adding in a special rule to triple that for "very special perfect sniper circumstances" would not only be very accurate with real numbers, but also would remove a big part of why combat boards can't handle "long combat distances".

Again, I say, how often does this come up? I cannot remember it ever being in an issue in all my years of playing.

 

[Incenjucar]

There's always room for special equipment like an elven bow or a bow string from a displacer beast gut that increases the maximum range.

 

[Hussar]

Funny how every example of ranges is limited to 150 feet at most. Still not seeing the problem.

Does anyone have any actual examples where encounters start at 500+ feet?

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Just for kicks! Here is my 6’ X 4’ table. In the middle are some goblins and an adventuring party for scale.

 

[Incenjucar]

Funny how every example of ranges is limited to 150 feet at most. Still not seeing the problem.

Does anyone have any actual examples where encounters start at 500+ feet?

It's been years so I'm not sure, but it may have come up in ship-to-ship interactions in my pirate campaign.

 

[dave2008]

In the Immortals rules I am working on attacks can have a range measured in solar systems or greater. So, I'm not to concerned about 600 ft longbows.

 

[dave2008]

As I mentioned earlier, can a bow get to that range sure. And if you have a mass of archers all firing at a battlefield 600 feet away, I could believe they would kill people on it.

But there is a massive difference between mass volley fire and expecting an archer to hit a moving target that may have some form of armor or protection while they themselves have to avoid danger....that is where its just ludicrous.

I retain that the simplest solution is to shorten the ranges for most ranged weapons, and provide some ability to "sniper" at double or triple the range but with very very strict restrictions.

I think that is a good idea. I mean it takes an arrow about 2 seconds to travel 600 feet. I don't have to be some hero to dodge that!