D&D (2024) How is Flex still a thing?

[mellored]

But, if you play Dungeon part of the D&D there is a lot of chance of small corridors and rooms filled with monsters so cleave could trigger almost every round.

And it does get better if you got a magic weapon and/or good riders for your attacks. Rage comes 1st to mind.

And it should be triggered for every attack that is not Cleave attack.
So extra attack feature, two chances to trigger Cleave

For barbarians in narrow corridors. Sure.

But it might be an actual trap for other classes though.

I worry about newbs taking it without realizing the problems....

 

[Horwath]

For barbarians in narrow corridors. Sure.

But it might be an actual trap for other classes though.

I worry about newbs taking it without realizing the problems....

it has one thing going for it, you get to roll one more attack, so that is fun.

 

[mellored]

Anyways.

While Flex could be better, it's really not that bad.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Assuming you have a choice, is it better to cast fireball or shatter?

You can't just ignore that one cost moee resources (i.e. hands) than the other.

Fireball. Even cast with the same level slot fireball is better. Yes, it takes a higher level slot, but that's why I don't cast shatter with a 3rd level slot. The handedness is not a resource, it is a limitation that I didn't bother to look up. There is no choice to use a two-handed required mastery on a one-handed weapon.

Would you rather have +2 Str, or the lucky feat?

That's the kind of choice you have. A constant small boost, or the occasional big boost.

No, that is not the kind of choice we have. For example, lucky runs out. Topple, graze, push, slow, ect do not run out.

More accurately it would be which is better, +2 strength, or +1d8 fire damage on your attacks. Sure, some enemies resist fire, some are immune to it, so +2 strength with "always" work, but at the end of the day, that "occasional" extra damage is far better.

IMO
versatile weapons should have 2 different masteries. Long swords slow in hand, and vex in 2 hands.

I agree we need something for 2-handed versatile weapons.

And set Graze to deal 1/2 stat bonus on a miss for 1 hand. Full stat bonus for 2 handers.


Graze is the "better than nothing" mastery.

I disagree. Damage on a Miss is spectacular.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The issue is more that all martial classes are being given masteries at level 1 when it should probably only be for fighters and maybe monks. That would explain why fighters got very little else. It's understandable as it's easier to playtest them from level 1.

Flip side is that mastery stacking is easier to control at level 1, level and there's a lot going on at level 5.

Well, I agree that is an issue, but it is a different issue than the one we are discussing.

 

[mellored]

that's why I don't cast shatter with a 3rd level slot

And it's why you won't use flex with a 2nd hand.

No, that is not the kind of choice we have. For example, lucky runs out. Topple, graze, push, slow, ect do not run out.

Topple runs out after you topple someone. Or if the rogue does. Or their turn is next and they just stand back up. Or if they save.
Push and slow runs out if the enemy has 10' extra movement and just walks back on their turn.

More accurately it would be which is better, +2 strength, or +1d8 fire damage on your attacks. Sure, some enemies resist fire, some are immune to it, so +2 strength with "always" work, but at the end of the day, that "occasional" extra damage is far better.

Fire resistance is rare.

Creatures being able to stand up and walk 10' to be in range of an ally is not.

I disagree. Damage on a Miss is spectacular.

Better than doing nothing on a miss, yes.. but I don't think anyone would say doing 4 damage is spectacular.

It is a nice simple option for 2-handed weapons though.

 

[Stalker0]

Let's say you have a high level fighter, and he has a weapon that has both Graze and Flex on it. He has to chose, before he attacks, which one to use. How often will he chose to guarantee damage over increasing it by +1? Assume a standard accuracy rate, with no advantage or anything like that.

Its a nitpick but crits do increase that damage a bit. When you have your champion fighter with an 18 - 20 crit range, the bonus is more like 1.3 rather than +1. Not much I will admit but it is there.

Now....why are we not assuming advantage? I mean the fighter gets to choose right, he can literally switch swing to swing. So sure on a normal attack with a reasonable chance to miss the fighter might take graze. But if he's got advantage (especially with a high crit chance)....maybe flex is back on the menu. The power of the fighter is he can choose whatever makes sense in the moment.

 

[Stalker0]

My biggest beef with cleave is the second attack roll. Just use the same attack roll for the 2nd creature, if it hits you get the damage. And then if you crit with the first one, well then awesome you get in a second crit, which makes the ability seem a lot cooler even if it doesn't actually up the average damage any. But yeah it FEELS really cool to get 2 crits in.

 

[Chaosmancer]

And it's why you won't use flex with a 2nd hand.

Topple runs out after you topple someone. Or if the rogue does. Or their turn is next and they just stand back up. Or if they save.
Push and slow runs out if the enemy has 10' extra movement and just walks back on their turn.

No, that isn't "running out" that is not being applicable.

Fire resistance is rare.

No it isn't. Fire Resistance is the second most common resistance in the game after poison resistance. And I think I remember more things being immune to fire than were immune to poison, but that could be a bad memory.

Edit: It was bad memory. Very few things have poison resistance. So Fire Resistance is actuallly the most common in the game. Many many many things have poison immunity.

Creatures being able to stand up and walk 10' to be in range of an ally is not.

Don't know what this has to do with +2 strength, seems like a non-sequiter.

Better than doing nothing on a miss, yes.. but I don't think anyone would say doing 4 damage is spectacular.

It is a nice simple option for 2-handed weapons though.

It isn't about doing 4 damage. It is about never dealing 0 damage. And as someone who has seen enemies survive far longer than they should because the dice turned cold, that is amazing.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Its a nitpick but crits do increase that damage a bit. When you have your champion fighter with an 18 - 20 crit range, the bonus is more like 1.3 rather than +1. Not much I will admit but it is there.

Now....why are we not assuming advantage? I mean the fighter gets to choose right, he can literally switch swing to swing. So sure on a normal attack with a reasonable chance to miss the fighter might take graze. But if he's got advantage (especially with a high crit chance)....maybe flex is back on the menu. The power of the fighter is he can choose whatever makes sense in the moment.

Because if you assume you are going to hit, then Graze isn't going to be applicable. Just like if you have an enemy immune to prone, then topple isn't applicable. Sure, that option exists, but it is once more a "everything else I can do doesn't work, so I will use this option" and since that seems to be the best thing Flex has going for it, then that explains why it keeps being refered to as an incredibly poor option. If you CAN use anything else... you generally WILL.