D&D General Monk: The Past, Present, and Questionable Future of an Iconic Class

[Weiley31]

Or is this one of those "Fantasy is McDonalds Fantasy" things where they tell me at the drive-thru window that the shake machine is dead?

Love my Fantasy McDonalds and never want it going anywhere.

 

[Weiley31]

YOU had that craziness, not everyone else in the community. Don't try and force it on us now. Take Kung-Fu Joe and play with that doll by yourself in the mud. It's okay. I won't judge you for doing it because Brian Blume made you. I get you OSR types like that kind of thing. Just be respectful and don't bring it to my table

You're really that upset over the UA Monk from the latest playtest packet, aren't ya?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

So I saw something last night from @Vael that I can't quite escape from, in that it is both so simple and so profound that it might actually work.

For Monk ASI levels, the Monk's focus on personal perfection allows them to choose a feat, and a +1. (Or choose the regular "ASI" feat, but not both).

Now, when I first saw that, I was like .... NAW. That would just be stoopid. That would break bounded accuracy and apple pie and the sacraments of D&D as handed down by Gygax hisself.

But the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. It is totally in keeping with the Monk's archetype- whether you're thinking of how my Wu-Tang style can defeat you, or how John Dalton will insure you don't cause trouble at the inn, the Monk has always keyed in on perfection of the self.

It would give the Monk something that truly differentiates it from all other classes, without trampling on any other classes' core identities.

It isn't OP, given that the Monk is notoriously MAD. If anything, it would actually allow the Monk access to feats without punishing penalties.

It provides custom "ribbons" for the class that would allow the Monk flexibility to excel at other aspects of the game, or provide new ways to approach combat.

And it would be an implicit and tacit acknowledgement that the Monk, as a general rule, doesn't get all the cool toys that other classes get in terms of magic items.

Obviously, additional thought would have to be given to this- for example, perhaps only certain feats would be allowed. Or the Monk would be restricted so if they take a feat with a +1 in an ability, they would not be allowed to stack the "free" +1 in the same ability.

But the more I think about it, the more this seems like it might be something that could actually work as a Monk niche.

Will they ever do it? HA! Of course not. But I wanted to cross-post this, because it is both simple and intriguing.

 

[TwoSix]

Now, when I first saw that, I was like .... NAW. That would just be stoopid. That would break bounded accuracy and apple pie and the sacraments of D&D as handed down by Gygax hisself.

Nah, it's actually a pretty good idea. I've used it in homebrews for subclasses that were MAD, especially for stats that don't synergize well (a cleric subclass that wanted high Int, a rogue subclass that wanted both Dex and Str).

 

[Mind of tempest]

So I saw something last night from @Vael that I can't quite escape from, in that it is both so simple and so profound that it might actually work.

For Monk ASI levels, the Monk's focus on personal perfection allows them to choose a feat, and a +1. (Or choose the regular "ASI" feat, but not both).

Now, when I first saw that, I was like .... NAW. That would just be stoopid. That would break bounded accuracy and apple pie and the sacraments of D&D as handed down by Gygax hisself.

But the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. It is totally in keeping with the Monk's archetype- whether you're thinking of how my Wu-Tang style can defeat you, or how John Dalton will insure you don't cause trouble at the inn, the Monk has always keyed in on perfection of the self.

It would give the Monk something that truly differentiates it from all other classes, without trampling on any other classes' core identities.

It isn't OP, given that the Monk is notoriously MAD. If anything, it would actually allow the Monk access to feats without punishing penalties.

It provides custom "ribbons" for the class that would allow the Monk flexibility to excel at other aspects of the game, or provide new ways to approach combat.

And it would be an implicit and tacit acknowledgement that the Monk, as a general rule, doesn't get all the cool toys that other classes get in terms of magic items.

Obviously, additional thought would have to be given to this- for example, perhaps only certain feats would be allowed. Or the Monk would be restricted so if they take a feat with a +1 in an ability, they would not be allowed to stack the "free" +1 in the same ability.

But the more I think about it, the more this seems like it might be something that could actually work as a Monk niche.

Will they ever do it? HA! Of course not. But I wanted to cross-post this, because it is both simple and intriguing.

I say we separate the martial arts and the mystical parts into two separate pseudo subclasses

 

[Voadam]

So I saw something last night from @Vael that I can't quite escape from, in that it is both so simple and so profound that it might actually work.

For Monk ASI levels, the Monk's focus on personal perfection allows them to choose a feat, and a +1. (Or choose the regular "ASI" feat, but not both).

Now, when I first saw that, I was like .... NAW. That would just be stoopid. That would break bounded accuracy and apple pie and the sacraments of D&D as handed down by Gygax hisself.

But the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. It is totally in keeping with the Monk's archetype- whether you're thinking of how my Wu-Tang style can defeat you, or how John Dalton will insure you don't cause trouble at the inn, the Monk has always keyed in on perfection of the self.

It would give the Monk something that truly differentiates it from all other classes, without trampling on any other classes' core identities.

It isn't OP, given that the Monk is notoriously MAD. If anything, it would actually allow the Monk access to feats without punishing penalties.

It provides custom "ribbons" for the class that would allow the Monk flexibility to excel at other aspects of the game, or provide new ways to approach combat.

And it would be an implicit and tacit acknowledgement that the Monk, as a general rule, doesn't get all the cool toys that other classes get in terms of magic items.

Obviously, additional thought would have to be given to this- for example, perhaps only certain feats would be allowed. Or the Monk would be restricted so if they take a feat with a +1 in an ability, they would not be allowed to stack the "free" +1 in the same ability.

But the more I think about it, the more this seems like it might be something that could actually work as a Monk niche.

Will they ever do it? HA! Of course not. But I wanted to cross-post this, because it is both simple and intriguing.

That's an interesting option for allowing more custom abilities, but it actually incentivizes against using their ASI on a +2 ASI to address their MAD and perfecting their core self. A +1 ASI every time they get an ASI (whether spent on a feat or an ASI) might work better, it would be like a different spin on fighters getting more ASIs.

 

[Clint_L]

I think that would be a tough rule to implement because everyone at the table would want it. It's not like letting monks add their wisdom modifier to their ki pool, where the person playing the cleric is like "Eh, whatever, good for them." Extra ASIs are extremely coveted; look at the competition for magic items such as the Tome of Clear Thought, etc.

I also don't see it addressing the core problem, which is that monks, particularly at low levels, lack the resources (ki/di and bonus actions) to do their cool monk stuff very often. This would, in effect, give monks an extra +1 to a single ability score or one extra feat before level 8. I don't see that making a huge difference.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think that would be a tough rule to implement because everyone at the table would want it. It's not like letting monks add their wisdom modifier to their ki pool, where the person playing the cleric is like "Eh, whatever, good for them." Extra ASIs are extremely coveted; look at the competition for magic items such as the Tome of Clear Thought, etc.

I also don't see it addressing the core problem, which is that monks, particularly at low levels, lack the resources (ki/di and bonus actions) to do their cool monk stuff very often. This would, in effect, give monks an extra +1 to a single ability score or one extra feat before level 8. I don't see that making a huge difference.

On that, I have two responses.

To the first, so? Everyone at the table wants expertise. Everyone at the table wants the extra fighter ASI (or second win). Everyone at the table wants the Paladin's smite. This isn't even an "extra" ASI (like the Fighter gets); instead, it's just allowing the Monk to take a +1 in addition to a feat. Which means that all the way up through 15th level, they still will have only added a total of +3 to their ability scores through this addition. For a MAD class, it's not a gamebreaker- it's just a nice bonus that would actually allow and incentivize Monks to take feats, is in keeping with the class concept, and would provide Monks a unique difference that no other class has. As it stands, the penalty that Monks get for taking feats is arguably more severe than it is for any other class. In addition, it's not like people will "dip" to get it- a Multiclass Monk is rarer than a Monk with a magic item that improves their unarmed attacks.

It is an elegant, and most importantly, simple way to make the Monk a better class!

On the second, I don't worry so much about levels 1 and 2. In 5e, they barely last a blink of an eye, and, honestly, it's kind of keeping with Monk tradition. The issue with ki isn't so much the amount in my experience, and it is addressed with the new ability- it's the lack of short rests in most campaigns. Think of it this way- if Monks had three times the ki, recharged on long rests, it wouldn't be so much of an issue, right? But, to me, that's a short rest issue, and not an overall resource issue (YMMV).

I do think that the bonus action economy does tend to limit monks somewhat, and that it would be great if the Monk had more abilities that would simply be "on" as opposed to trigger from bonus actions. And other simple fixes (again, Monks should be able to use both athletics and acrobatics from the same ability score, and there should be some type of strength monk). But the majority of these other issues are simply playing around with making the Monk more effective in combat; to me, the issue isn't combat. The Monk will never be as tanky as the barbarian, nor as good at straight up figting as the fighter. So, instead, I think it would be great to look at not just the combat, but at something else that would make the Monk stand out.

@Voadam I agree that it disincentives the Monk from taking the +2 ASI. That's the point, and the tradeoff. I suppose the "focus on self" could mean that if they take the +2 ASI, they also gain something small- a single skill, language, tool, that sort of thing.


Again, this is an idea to be workshopped. But what is appealing is its simplicity.

 

[nevin]

What makes combat such a special edge case that the DM can't handle  it?

maybe I misunderstood you referenced exploration pillar

 

[ad_hoc]

That's an interesting option for allowing more custom abilities, but it actually incentivizes against using their ASI on a +2 ASI to address their MAD and perfecting their core self. A +1 ASI every time they get an ASI (whether spent on a feat or an ASI) might work better, it would be like a different spin on fighters getting more ASIs.

It would work if they could take a half feat as normal.

Then they would still get their +2.