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D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

Except that's not what the monk is. The 5e monk was "specifically built to facilitate" playing the previous-editions D&D monk, and that was specifically built around playing Remo Williams from the "The Destroyer" novels. Anything else the 5e monk chassis can do is pure bonus . . . and since we're having a backwards-compatible update, not an edition change, it's what we're stuck with.

And that's the real key advantage of adding a ki/discipline/whatever subclass to the fighter. A subclass alone would relieve some specific mechanical pressure, but far more importantly it'd take this idea that the monk is the "wuxia class" and punch it in the face.
I think we may disagree on what the monk is "supposed to be" vs what the monk is.

If we really think that the 5e monk class is intended to only facilitate a singular Remo Williams-based archetype, I think it's fair to ask whether that's a worthy design goal (I'd say no).

If that isn't the intent (and frankly I'd be surprised if it was), then we're back to asking what archetypes should the monk class facilitate and how good a job is it doing. Clearly I have an opinion on what I'd expect it to be, I'd love to hear yours.

The "good news" from a backwards compatibility perspective, is that, if we think that changes to the monk class design goals and/or implementation need adjustment, there aren't a ton of mechanical bits outside the monk class that have significant interactions with monk abilities. There isn't a "monk" spell list. There aren't "monk" magic items. The core monk gets little out of anything on either the weapons or armor table. There aren't feats that relate to ki points, or unarmed strikes. If you ripped the whole class out of the PHB, I'm legitimately not sure anyone would see a difference to anything in the rest of the game.

So I really wouldn't agree that we're "stuck" with anything.
 
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Chaosmancer

Legend
A single level dip for armor and shields would could get 18-20 AC (plus second wind or whatever)

This with a typical 30' speed and +3 Dex, would be AC 15 to 18 (if you stood still).

You need a speed boost to make it worth while. And even then, your trading that exact boost.

Right, but what about this.

Bladesong. It doesn't work if you have a shield or medium armor, so normally, with a +3 Dex and a +5 Int this would get you a baseline of 20 AC, then shield for 25. But then you can non-reaction lose movement (of which you have a +10 ft boost) and get that to 29. And without shield, you could stand as an artillery wizard with an AC of 24 just standard. No magical items. With Magical items this could casually break 30+ AC

War Wizard can ignore the need for shield, and while they are concentrating on a spell they get +2 AC. With MAge armor, Arcane Deflection, and that concentration bonus they can get to 23 AC rather trivially, again, no magical items.

Non-reaction AC increases can stack with other AC increases, and start making much higher ACs than expected.

Certainly a bit more complex than a flat AC.
But I thought it was a fun idea.

Oh, it is absolutely a great idea. It just has some rough spots to figure out how to make it work without making it part of someone's build for 35AC monstrosity characters.
 

mellored

Legend
Right, but what about this.

Bladesong. It doesn't work if you have a shield or medium armor, so normally, with a +3 Dex and a +5 Int this would get you a baseline of 20 AC, then shield for 25. But then you can non-reaction lose movement (of which you have a +10 ft boost) and get that to 29. And without shield, you could stand as an artillery wizard with an AC of 24 just standard. No magical items. With Magical items this could casually break 30+ AC
Seems like the main problem is blade song being a "bonus". Rather than a "your AC is..." that wouldn't stack.

I mean, it already stacks with unarmored defense. Do something like barbarian 1 + wizard 2 + fighter (Eldritch knight) for extra ASI and you can get 10+Dex+Con+Int+shield = 27 AC Base.
With plenty of slots for shield spells, high Con, a rage for non-AC defense.
War Wizard can ignore the need for shield, and while they are concentrating on a spell they get +2 AC.
That stacks with everything anyways.
And your not going to get a lot of speed if your 10 levels of wizard.
With MAge armor, Arcane Deflection, and that concentration bonus they can get to 23 AC rather trivially, again, no magical items.
Mage armor won't stack. It's either
13+Dex Or
12+Dex+ unused movement / 10
Non-reaction AC increases can stack with other AC increases, and start making much higher ACs than expected.
I expect 30' of movement as base.
12 + 5 dex + 30' = 20.
Same AC you get for a level 1 fighter dip, but only if you don't move.

Max level monk could get 23 (24 with mobility feat), but with a major trade off of standing still.
Oh, it is absolutely a great idea. It just has some rough spots to figure out how to make it work without making it part of someone's build for 35AC monstrosity characters.
Well it's hardly play tested and could probably be worded better.

While not wearing armor or using a shield, your AC is equal to 12 + dex + unused movement / 10.
You can declare movement as unused at any time durring your turn (no action). Including after an attack roll (such as an opportunity attack), causing it to miss. This unused movement part last until the start of your next turn.
 

mellored

Legend
But hey. This is the monk reaction thread... 😁

As a reaction, you can take a penalty to movement in order to gain higher defense, potentially causing an attack to miss. This penalty can not exceed your current speed and last until the start of your next turn.
Until the start of your next turn, your AC is equal to 12 + Dex +1AC for every 10' penalty you take.

For instance, if your Dex is 3 and your speed is 45', your could take up to a 40' movement penalty and get an AC of 12+3+4 = 19.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
But hey. This is the monk reaction thread... 😁

As a reaction, you can take a penalty to movement in order to gain higher defense, potentially causing an attack to miss. This penalty can not exceed your current speed and last until the start of your next turn.
Until the start of your next turn, your AC is equal to 12 + Dex +1AC for every 10' penalty you take.

For instance, if your Dex is 3 and your speed is 45', your could take up to a 40' movement penalty and get an AC of 12+3+4 = 19.

Yeah, I think that would be better in a few ways.
 

But hey. This is the monk reaction thread... 😁

As a reaction, you can take a penalty to movement in order to gain higher defense, potentially causing an attack to miss. This penalty can not exceed your current speed and last until the start of your next turn.
Until the start of your next turn, your AC is equal to 12 + Dex +1AC for every 10' penalty you take.

For instance, if your Dex is 3 and your speed is 45', your could take up to a 40' movement penalty and get an AC of 12+3+4 = 19.
Would lead to some interesting interactions with the haste spell and others that buff movement speed. Not 100% sure if that's good or bad.
 

mellored

Legend
Refactoring my idea a bit.

Unarmored movement.
While unamored and not using a shield, you gain Unarmored movement points at the start of each of your turns.
* expend 1 points to increase your speed by 10' until the start of your next turn.
*expend 1 point to increase your AC by 1 until the start of your next turn.
*when you use flurry of blows, you can expend 3 points to add another kick, making one additional unarmed strike. If you expend 7 points, you can make 2 unarmed strikes. Or 3 attacks for 16.

Edit: recharging at the end of your turn could work too. If you want to keep the AC as a reaction thing going.
 
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Clint_L

Legend
Okay, a month later and having considered a lot of different opinions, watched the Deep Dive videos, play tested on my own monk, etc., here is my current, comprehensive take on the base class. Spoiler: it hasn't changed much since my initial reaction, except to get worse:

Level One
Proficiencies: NERF. simple weapons - most of us missed that this is a huge nerf. Martial feats now require you to have proficiency with martial weapons. This locks monks out of all martial feats. No more sentinel, great weapon master, you name it. Massive nerf.

Martial arts: NERF. Yes, it went up by one die (so an average of +1 damage to attacks, woohoo), but you can now only use the martial arts damage die for unarmed attacks, which is a straight nerf at high levels if you want to use a weapon to access weapon masteries. Actually, it's a straight nerf at all levels, because see below. Bonus unarmed strike is unchanged. Dextrous attacks is slightly nerfed because the number of simple weapons has been reduced (no more short swords, specifically).

Unarmored defence: no change.

Weapon Mastery: NERF. How is this a nerf? Because every other martial class, and several non-martial classes (rogue, paladin, ranger) just got better, and monks can barely use this feature, and not without cost. For example, what are the standard monk weapons - spear and quarterstaff? What is the mastery for spear and quarterstaff? Flex. Who doesn't use shields? Monks. I mean, this is the worst mastery anyway, but monks still can't use it. Monks could use daggers, if they want to trade damage for mastery. As well, at high levels the monk's martial arts die exceeds the damage of any weapon the monk can choose, so, again, no mastery for monks.

Level Two
Martial Discipline: no change other than the name. I think all of us expected something here.
Flurry of Blows: no change.
Patient Defence: no change.
Step of the Wind: BUFF. You now get to combine the extra move and disengage instead of choosing between them, for one di point, which takes this from being straight trash to being satisfactory. It shouldn't cost anything other than a bonus action to use, but at least it's no longer an insult compared to what rogues get for free with cunning action.

Unarmored Movement: no change.

Level Three
Deflect Missiles: WASH. In the video, WotC made out like this got a damage buff. I'm not seeing it - two rolls of the martial arts die versus 1 roll plus dex modifier, roll to hit vs. saving throw...eh, that maths out roughly the same. The attack portion of this ability is still an ability that you might use once, if ever, at the cost of a di point. It should be free. The catching missiles part is unchanged and...fine. It's very situational and doesn't come up much - my current monk is level 8 and has used it exactly 0 times.

Level Four
Slow Fall: no change

Ability Score Improvement: NERF. See weapon proficiency above. Though realistically monks are so MAD that they normally can't take many feats anyway, so I guess it's kind of a wash?

Level Five
Extra Attack: no change.

Stunning Strike: NERF. You get now one chance per turn, it's still on a constitution saving throw (so, the easiest saving throw for most opponents), and if it fails, you get nothing. I know the current iteration is criticized for making monks into one trick ponies...but now they are no trick ponies. Come on, WotC - put some effort in and redesign the whole thing. Oh, and now it expires at the beginning of the monk's next turn instead of the end, so the monk doesn't get to benefit from their own stunning strike, which is just adding insult to injury.

Level Six
Empowered Strikes: Wash. Maybe technically a nerf, but few creatures resist force damage.

Level Seven
Evasion: no change.

Heightened Metabolism: BUFF. Finally, at level 7 monks get to not worry as much about having enough discipline points. I mean, unless it's a long fight. Still, this is very good.

Stillness of Mind: NERF. Removed (but effects wrapped into self-restoration at level 10; see below).

Level Nine
Acrobatic Movement: no change.

Level Ten
Self Restoration: NERF/BUFF: Losing immunity to poison damage is a straight nerf. However, being able to remove charmed or frightened as a bonus action rather than an action is a buff, though you have to wait three more levels to get access to it, and being able to remove the charmed condition is very situational. I think it's a definite nerf overall, and a very underwhelming level ten ability.

Level Thirteen
Deflect energy: ?. Monks lose fluency in all languages (more or less) which was often useful outside of combat, depending on the campaign, but by this level is fairly easy for other classes to get. But they gain the ability to deflect spell attacks, which, I dunno, might come up sometime. See deflect missiles, above. Either ability is pretty situational and weak, so I guess this is a wash?

Level Fourteen
Discipline Survivor: no change other than the name.

Level Fifteen
Perfect Discipline: BUFF (but still sucks). The current level 15 ability, Timeless Body, is a straight ribbon, so anything here would be a buff. Perfect discipline finally more or less keeps the monk in discipline points...but at a level where that is seldom an issue anymore. I doubt your monk will ever use it. And if they do need it...it's weirdly designed. Like, if you start your turn with 1,2, or 3 discipline points, you get nothing from it. So...it's better than the nothing monks previously got at this level, but not by much.

Level Eighteen
Superior Defence: BUFF (more or less). Okay, it costs one less discipline point than the current version, but you lose invisibility. That's a nerf. However, it now uses a bonus action rather than an action, which is way better. So, overall, a solid buff, IMO.

Level Twenty
Defy Death: BUFF (but still weak). The previous capstone, which is now the level fifteen ability, was straight garbage, so this is a definite buff compared to that. However, compared to other capstone abilities, this is very unimpressive. More problematically...Way of Long Death monks already get a much more powerful version of this exact ability...but at level 11. So...what is their level 20 capstone ability, now? I don't think WotC thought this one through, at all.

TLDR: Terrible. Monks can no longer take martial feats, get nothing from weapon masteries, putting them way behind all the other martial classes, have their signature ability heavily nerfed, and most of the buffs still aren't that great. While other classes took a big step forward, the monks at best stood still, and went backwards in important, measurable ways. My feedback to WotC will be that this iteration is a disaster for monks and will drop them from being popularly considered the D tier class to a straight F.
 
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Gorck

Prince of Dorkness
Stunning Strike: NERF. You get now one chance per turn, it's still on a constitution saving throw (so, the easiest saving throw for most opponents), and if it fails, you get nothing. I know the current iteration is criticized for making monks into one trick ponies...but now they are no trick ponies. Come on, WotC - put some effort in and redesign the whole thing. Oh, and now it expires at the beginning of the monk's next turn instead of the end, so the monk doesn't get to benefit from their own stunning strike, which is just adding insult to injury.
Unless you use it on the first attack on your turn, then you'll get the benefit on subsequent attacks on your turn (and at 5th level, Monk's get Extra Attack to go with their FOB)
 

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