D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[Chaosmancer]

Warrior of Shadow
Level 3: BUFF, with caveats. Losing Pass without Trace really sucks, because monks don't have a lot of out of combat options that help the whole party, and PwT is one of the best. However, getting Darkness for only 1 di point is better, PLUS you can move it, and flat out gaining darkvision is necessary to the class. This puts the pieces in place that the Shadow monk can build on later (similar to how Mercy monk also builds on its level three abilities).

Do you think it would be too much to put Pass without Trace, Darkvision (solely for allies), and Silence back as options for them to use? It wouldn't increase their combat power one iota, but it would give them back the utility they lost.

Warrior of the Elements
Level 6: BUFF???. Again, this is better than the previous version but still not great. 2 di (a third of your pool when you get this ability) to do a 3d8 (scaling) AoE at range is kind of underwhelming when wizards are casting fireballs for a smaller share of their resources at this level. But the potential is there - what if the damage instead became 2 martial arts dice PER di spent, maybe up to a maximum of your proficiency bonus? That would get it there.

So, similiar to the Sun Soul's AOE? Actually... why not just copy that?

Make it a 1 Martial art die AOE for free, then spend ki to increase the damage by two dice per ki spent. So 1 ki = 3d, 2 ki equal = 5d. Might be a bit too strong, but I'm fine with that. Or you could copy the Ascendant Dragon's Breath Weapon ability.

Warrior of the Hand
Level 6: NERF. Both versions of this suck, but I will argue that the new version sucks harder. The old version used your action but didn't cost resources and gave you a decent heal - 3x monk level. The new version costs a bonus action AND a di point but gives you a much worse heal, though you can use it more often, as many times as your wisdom modifier per long rest (but you shouldn't because the action economy on it is TERRIBLE).

This ability is particularly bad when you look at it in the context of a Mercy monk's level 6 ability: they can do the exact same heal as often as they have ki/di points, and they can do it to whoever they want, not just themselves. And on top of the heal can also remove one condition from the target: blinded, deafened, poisoned, paralyzed, or stunned. OR they can instead choose to do that same amount of necrotic damage to their target, succeeding automatically, and inflict the poisoned condition with no save, which is an amazing debuff. Oh, and they get it as part of their flurry of blows, meaning they keep the initial unarmed strike, which Warrior of the Hand has to sacrifice to get their crappy little heal.

How did WotC look at the Mercy monk ability and then decide to give this garbage can version of it to Warrior of the Hand? It boggles the mind.

I find it especially egregious because of how expensive it ends up being.

The original feature healed a guaranteed 18 when you got it, and a max of 60. It was once per day, and it was an action, but since it was an action it wasn't used in combat. It also, as you say, cost nothing.

This version is a die + wisdom mod. Now, that means that until level 12 or so, you are looking at it being +3. So, it starts with 1d8+3 or 7.5 ON AVERAGE. It is ONLY a bonus action... but since that still costs you things like patient defense or flurry of blows, you STILL aren't likely to use it in combat unless you are desperate.

So, you are likely getting three uses, which is 3d8+9, which is more healing technically, it averages out to 22.5, but that is also an average. You could potentially heal a total of 17 or a total of 15. And, it doesn't increase. By the time the Old Open Hand was level 10, this ability was healing 30 hp. This version is still averaging 22.5, because you haven't had a chance to increase your wisdom if you are focused on your dex. Now, if you were able to get Wisdom 20 (unlikely) then this would max out at 5d12+25.... which is 57.5 on average. LESS than the original peak.

Oh, and we've forgotten something. All this healing? All this healing that is LESS than what you used to get? It now costs you between 3 and 5 ki to pull off.

This is just horrible.

Level 11: BUFF. But it's not great - it lets you use Step of the Wind without spending di points...which is how Step of the Wind should work for all monks, baseline. However, the old tranquility ability was such trash that anything is an improvement.

Eh, I think all the old Tranquility ability needed was the chance to be restablished after a fight.

 

[Mephista]

Okay, a month later and having considered a lot of different opinions, watched the Deep Dive videos, play tested on my own monk, etc., here is my current, comprehensive take on the base class. Spoiler: it hasn't changed much since my initial reaction, except to get worse:
.

TLDR: Terrible. Monks can no longer take martial feats, get nothing from weapon masteries, putting them way behind all the other martial classes, have their signature ability heavily nerfed, and most of the buffs still aren't that great. While other classes took a big step forward, the monks at best stood still, and went backwards in important, measurable ways. My feedback to WotC will be that this iteration is a disaster for monks and will drop them from being popularly considered the D tier class to a straight F.

One thing that still annoys me about monk is that, compared to rogue, its bonus actions are too costly.

Baseline, level 1 monk gets a BA unarmed attack that deals 1d6+DEX damage. At level 2, you get Flurry, Defense and Step - each of these require a ki point AND your BA. So, you aren't just giving up a discipline point to use Patient Defense or Step of the Wind. You're giving up damage and a discipline point. Flurry of Blows isn't too bad, since its more like just spending a point to get another attack instead of losing anything. But that just means that every use of Step or Defense is effectively giving up two attacks. Which is a huge deal.

Superior Defense has the same issue - you're giving up your damage and di points for something of dubious value. They could have made the skill improve Patient Defense

Compare to the rogue's new Cunning Strike. They give up 1d6 damage to do some cool things. If we assume a 50% miss chance, a level 2 monk is giving up 1d6 + DEX damage to do something. Double the amount at level 2, and it scales with monk unarmed damage/DEX boosts. Monks are giving up DOUBLE what the rogue does, and with a limited number of times being able to do it.

This isn't a proper nerf, but its definitely something that will come up to make the monk feel worse in comparison to other classes.

 

[Clint_L]

Yes, as Treantmonk points out, even if you argue that monks haven't technically gotten worse (I think they have but it's at best a wash), when everyone else is moving ahead and you are standing still, then it's an effective nerf. Masteries being all but unusable to monks is especially egregious, and losing martial feats is so mind-numbing that we are all assuming it is a mistake.

I think what really sucks is most folks were at least expecting more discipline points or something that addressed the chronic problems with monks. Which, I would argue, is what the designers of the Mercy monk did for Tasha's - I'll write more on that subclass and why it is a stealth partial redesign of the monk and illustrates that at least some folks at WotC understand the basic problems with the class.

 

[Mephista]

Which is a shame. I know a number of people are kinda bland on the new Elemental monk, but I'm loving it. The level 6 ability could use work, but the subclass is very attractive. It really does feel like an insult that I'm denied feats or weapon masteries to use with the subclasses though.

Like... I actually don't think its a bad class fantasy to have the monk being the Simple Weapon warrior. But... the effects of that decision (weapon mastery, feats, no martial arts damage to simple weapons) make it so much worse. Why on earth is giving the DRUID of all things martial weapons okay, but not a martial class? Like, if we're going to be bringing some kind of balance between casters and martials, then keeping casters away from martial weapons could be a good start. Why are we giving Rangers and Paladins access to weapon masteries but the monk gets neither?

I just... don't understand. And I have to agree with Chris when he said it was deliberate decision. The way they were messing with short swords does make it feel like they were specifically planning on denying monks access to weapon mastery feats. If its deliberate... why would they do that? What on earth prompted them to do this?

I mean, it'd be one thing if they were testing to see how improvements to the subclasses would affect how we feel about the base class. But they ripped so much away...

 

[Gorck]

So, to be useful to you, it has to be used on your first attack, and land, and you may be able to, if you spend another ki, get some attacks with advantage. Because, let us not forget, that is all stun offers to the monk, advantage.

That's pretty darn weak, because any enemy you really want advantage to hit... likely was hard to hit with that first attack.

I never said anything about what made it "useful to [me]." I never expressed any opinion about it whatsoever. Clint claimed that "the monk doesn't get to benefit from their own stunning strike, which is just adding insult to injury." I merely mentioned that the Monk can, in fact, benefit from their own stunning strike if they successfully use it on their first attack (or at least not on their last attack).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Like... I actually don't think its a bad class fantasy to have the monk being the Simple Weapon warrior. But... the effects of that decision (weapon mastery, feats, no martial arts damage to simple weapons) make it so much worse. Why on earth is giving the DRUID of all things martial weapons okay, but not a martial class? Like, if we're going to be bringing some kind of balance between casters and martials, then keeping casters away from martial weapons could be a good start. Why are we giving Rangers and Paladins access to weapon masteries but the monk gets neither?

That's the really confounding decision to me.

They make these groups and then put the Monk in the Warrior group- you know, the martial classes! Great so far.

Then they add weapon masteries. When they first announced it, I assumed (incorrectly) that this was something for the Warriors. But nope, it's for Warriors. Oh, and Paladins. And Rangers.

And we are also going to remove the martial arts damage die from monks that use weapons, so that it's no longer a real option for Monks.

To put it plainly- the half casters get weapon mastery de jure and de facto. The actual warrior class (Monks) get it de jure, but de facto? Yeah, they aren't getting it.

Everything about this redesign seems half-baked, and to add insult to injury, they pushed it so late in the cycle that it's going to be hard to make the real substantive change to the approach that are required.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I think part of the issue is they wanted to simplify the Monk weapon choices. Instead of a "simple weapons plus one specific martial weapon", they went with just "simple weapons". Then fiddled with where to put the short sword.

Adding the short sword back doesn't fix much, other than giving the Monk a finesse weapon. They've already got handaxe for the weapon mastery property Vex if they want.

I don't know if opening up all martial weapons to the Monk is the answer either, for the way some of those weapons may out-class their bare-handed attacks, plus really killing the flavor of the class. I personally don't like the mental picture of a great-axe wielding, first level monk.

Or we could harken back to earlier editions and have the monk with an eclectic list of specific weapons, a mix of simple and martial, which would give them more options. But again, for the sake of simplicity, I doubt they'll go this way.

Perhaps giving them some of the versatility of the fighter with regard to weapon masteries might help, enabling the ability to apply masteries to weapons other than what the weapon is listed with. Feels very Jackie-Chan-improvisational-martial-artist to me.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I think part of the issue is they wanted to simplify the Monk weapon choices. Instead of a "simple weapons plus one specific martial weapon", they went with just "simple weapons". Then fiddled with where to put the short sword.

Adding the short sword back doesn't fix much, other than giving the Monk a finesse weapon. They've already got handaxe for the weapon mastery property Vex if they want.

I don't know if opening up all martial weapons to the Monk is the answer either, for the way some of those weapons may out-class their bare-handed attacks, plus really killing the flavor of the class. I personally don't like the mental picture of a great-axe wielding, first level monk.

Or we could harken back to earlier editions and have the monk with an eclectic list of specific weapons, a mix of simple and martial, which would give them more options. But again, for the sake of simplicity, I doubt they'll go this way.

Perhaps giving them some of the versatility of the fighter with regard to weapon masteries might help, enabling the ability to apply masteries to weapons other than what the weapon is listed with. Feels very Jackie-Chan-improvisational-martial-artist to me.

While I want the base monk to rely on Simple Weapons, I think there is design space to broaden that in a subclass. Maybe the 4th subclass for the monk can be a Weapon-Focused monk (perhaps "Warrior of Steel") They would get proficiency with Martial weapons and can use them when a monk ability normally requires a simple weapon. Maybe they can substitute their unarmed strike damage for their weapons, which works alongside the Weapon Masteries they now have access to. A Riddle of Steel concept where these monks like to forge their own weapons so they have a personal connection to the weapon, would be cool.

To make this work better, some of my main feedback will be for them to allow Strength-based monks as well, which will enable a Warrior of Steel to use larger Strength-based martial weapons without enabling them to become super-efficient Dex weapons (enabling the reskinning of a longsword as a katana, a greatsword for a no-dachi, or a maul for a meteor hammer, for instance.)

Would that be too powerful?

Would people still play an Elements or Shadow Monk if they had to stick to Light weapons, or would the lure of using a greatsword or a maul with masteries, as a Monk, be too cool to pass up?

 

[Sir Brennen]

While I want the base monk to rely on Simple Weapons, I think there is design space to broaden that in a subclass. [...]

Well, I know I'm certainly hoping the Kensei (from XGtE) gets an update.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

This is... hard to agree with. Sure, if Flex is changed, monks will benefit from that. But there are still only the three or four masteries they even have access to. And even if all those got buffed or improved (which I doubt, since Nick and Vex are seemingly fulfilling their roles) the biggest problem isn't with the masteries, but with the monk.

Who is honestly going to be happy using Nick when it takes your damage die from a d12 to a d4? Who wants Sap at the cost of a d12 becoming a d6? That is a 3 pt average difference, that is MASSIVE.

You seemed to ignore the part, where I agreed with @Clint_L ...

And since I can´t look into the future, I can´t say how much of a buff we might see. A rogue pays with a lot of D6s for special effects. So going down from d12 to d4 for one attack might not be too bad if the effect justifies it.

The baby is the monk class overall. I like it. So it does not need to have a complete overhaul. The first rogue was a miss too. The second one did improve it a lot, I´d wager that this might be the final version, as it sees generally liked.

So I´d still improve on the design instead of doing knee jerk fixes. That is what got us the 2014 ranger...