D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[UngeheuerLich]

Okay, a month later and having considered a lot of different opinions, watched the Deep Dive videos, play tested on my own monk, etc., here is my current, comprehensive take on the base class. Spoiler: it hasn't changed much since my initial reaction, except to get worse:

Level One
Proficiencies: NERF. simple weapons - most of us missed that this is a huge nerf. Martial feats now require you to have proficiency with martial weapons. This locks monks out of all martial feats. No more sentinel, great weapon master, you name it. Massive nerf.

Martial arts: NERF. Yes, it went up by one die (so an average of +1 damage to attacks, woohoo), but you can now only use the martial arts damage die for unarmed attacks, which is a straight nerf at high levels if you want to use a weapon to access weapon masteries. Actually, it's a straight nerf at all levels, because see below. Bonus unarmed strike is unchanged. Dextrous attacks is slightly nerfed because the number of simple weapons has been reduced (no more short swords, specifically).

Unarmored defence: no change.

Weapon Mastery: NERF. How is this a nerf? Because every other martial class, and several non-martial classes (rogue, paladin, ranger) just got better, and monks can barely use this feature, and not without cost. For example, what are the standard monk weapons - spear and quarterstaff? What is the mastery for spear and quarterstaff? Flex. Who doesn't use shields? Monks. I mean, this is the worst mastery anyway, but monks still can't use it. Monks could use daggers, if they want to trade damage for mastery. As well, at high levels the monk's martial arts die exceeds the damage of any weapon the monk can choose, so, again, no mastery for monks.

Level Two
Martial Discipline: no change other than the name. I think all of us expected something here.
Flurry of Blows: no change.
Patient Defence: no change.
Step of the Wind: BUFF. You now get to combine the extra move and disengage instead of choosing between them, for one di point, which takes this from being straight trash to being satisfactory. It shouldn't cost anything other than a bonus action to use, but at least it's no longer an insult compared to what rogues get for free with cunning action.

Unarmored Movement: no change.

Level Three
Deflect Missiles: WASH. In the video, WotC made out like this got a damage buff. I'm not seeing it - two rolls of the martial arts die versus 1 roll plus dex modifier, roll to hit vs. saving throw...eh, that maths out roughly the same. The attack portion of this ability is still an ability that you might use once, if ever, at the cost of a di point. It should be free. The catching missiles part is unchanged and...fine. It's very situational and doesn't come up much - my current monk is level 8 and has used it exactly 0 times.

Level Four
Slow Fall: no change

Ability Score Improvement: NERF. See weapon proficiency above. Though realistically monks are so MAD that they normally can't take many feats anyway, so I guess it's kind of a wash?

Level Five
Extra Attack: no change.

Stunning Strike: NERF. You get now one chance per turn, it's still on a constitution saving throw (so, the easiest saving throw for most opponents), and if it fails, you get nothing. I know the current iteration is criticized for making monks into one trick ponies...but now they are no trick ponies. Come on, WotC - put some effort in and redesign the whole thing. Oh, and now it expires at the beginning of the monk's next turn instead of the end, so the monk doesn't get to benefit from their own stunning strike, which is just adding insult to injury.

Level Six
Empowered Strikes: Wash. Maybe technically a nerf, but few creatures resist force damage.

Level Seven
Evasion: no change.

Heightened Metabolism: BUFF. Finally, at level 7 monks get to not worry as much about having enough discipline points. I mean, unless it's a long fight. Still, this is very good.

Stillness of Mind: NERF. Removed (but effects wrapped into self-restoration at level 10; see below).

Level Nine
Acrobatic Movement: no change.

Level Ten
Self Restoration: NERF/BUFF: Losing immunity to poison damage is a straight nerf. However, being able to remove charmed or frightened as a bonus action rather than an action is a buff, though you have to wait three more levels to get access to it, and being able to remove the charmed condition is very situational. I think it's a definite nerf overall, and a very underwhelming level ten ability.

Level Thirteen
Deflect energy: ?. Monks lose fluency in all languages (more or less) which was often useful outside of combat, depending on the campaign, but by this level is fairly easy for other classes to get. But they gain the ability to defect spell attacks, which, I dunno, might come up sometime. See deflect missiles, above. Either ability is pretty situational and weak, so I guess this is a wash?

Level Fourteen
Discipline Survivor: no change other than the name.

Level Fifteen
Perfect Discipline: BUFF (but still sucks). The current level 15 ability, Timeless Body, is a straight ribbon, so anything here would be a buff. Perfect discipline finally more or less keeps the monk in discipline points...but at a level where that is seldom an issue anymore. I doubt your monk will ever use it. And if they do need it...it's weirdly designed. Like, if you start your turn with 1,2, or 3 discipline points, you get nothing from it. So...it's better than the nothing monks previously got at this level, but not by much.

Level Eighteen
Superior Defence: BUFF (more or less). Okay, it costs one less discipline point than the current version, but you lose invisibility. That's a nerf. However, it now uses a bonus action rather than an action, which is way better. So, overall, a solid buff, IMO.

Level Twenty
Defy Death: BUFF (but still weak). The previous capstone, which is now the level fifteen ability, was straight garbage, so this is a definite buff compared to that. However, compared to other capstone abilities, this is very unimpressive. More problematically...Way of Long Death monks already get a much more powerful version of this exact ability...but at level 11. So...what is their level 20 capstone ability, now? I don't think WotC thought this one through, at all.

TLDR: Terrible. Monks can no longer take martial feats, get nothing from weapon masteries, putting them way behind all the other martial classes, have their signature ability heavily nerfed, and most of the buffs still aren't that great. While other classes took a big step forward, the monks at best stood still, and went backwards in important, measurable ways. My feedback to WotC will be that this iteration is a disaster for monks and will drop them from being popularly considered the D tier class to a straight F.

I see why you are upset.

The subclasses got some buffs though.
I don't think it is enough.
Your analysis of weapon mastery is spot on. But as weapon mastery gets refined, the monk might get an inderect buff.

I think, that tgere is room for improvement without throwing the bay out with the bathwater.

 

[Clint_L]

I see why you are upset.

The subclasses got some buffs though.
I don't think it is enough.
Your analysis of weapon mastery is spot on. But as weapon mastery gets refined, the monk might get an inderect buff.

I think, that tgere is room for improvement without throwing the bay out with the bathwater.

Warrior of Shadow got buffs. Warrior of the Hand is terrible. Warrior of the Elements is...better, but still very weak. Warrior of Mercy is unchanged, which means they still remain the best monk sub-class, though at least Shadow is now a solid second, doubling the monk's quotient of decent sub-classes. I'll cover sub-classes in more detail later.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Unless you use it on the first attack on your turn, then you'll get the benefit on subsequent attacks on your turn (and at 5th level, Monk's get Extra Attack to go with their FOB)

So, to be useful to you, it has to be used on your first attack, and land, and you may be able to, if you spend another ki, get some attacks with advantage. Because, let us not forget, that is all stun offers to the monk, advantage.

That's pretty darn weak, because any enemy you really want advantage to hit... likely was hard to hit with that first attack.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I see why you are upset.

The subclasses got some buffs though.
I don't think it is enough.

Way of the Open Hand was nerfed. I think one of those nerf's was neccessary, but their level 3 and level 6 abilities both got substantially worse. Their only ability that wasn't a nerf is their level 11, which got completely erased instead. The new ability is decent, but pretty small for how late it is.

Way of Shadows got to move their darkness and see through it, but now can no longer use Pass without Trace or give Darkvision to allies. They are less versatile now, if more mobile. I'd call it a wash.

Mercy is unchanged.

And, yeah, Four Elements got buffed... basically anything they did to it would have been a buff, so that's not exactly groundbreaking.

Your analysis of weapon mastery is spot on. But as weapon mastery gets refined, the monk might get an inderect buff.

This is... hard to agree with. Sure, if Flex is changed, monks will benefit from that. But there are still only the three or four masteries they even have access to. And even if all those got buffed or improved (which I doubt, since Nick and Vex are seemingly fulfilling their roles) the biggest problem isn't with the masteries, but with the monk.

Who is honestly going to be happy using Nick when it takes your damage die from a d12 to a d4? Who wants Sap at the cost of a d12 becoming a d6? That is a 3 pt average difference, that is MASSIVE.

I think, that tgere is room for improvement without throwing the bay out with the bathwater.

Where is the baby? I mean, sure, I guess I don't want the Four elements to get reset back to 2014, but in the base monk they have done nothing but harm, and most of the subclasses are fairly neutral overall. I can't find anything I'm really terrified of losing if we demand a from the ground re-work.

 

[ECMO3]

So I originally read this title as "What do people think about the new Monk Reactions in PT6" .... and I was like "I don't remember many reactions other than revised deflect missiles and slow fall let me see what this thread is about"

Anyway, now that I understand the question:

I like the new Monk, I think it is an improvement to what is already a viable class. I actually like weapon mastery here, where I do not really like it on the Ranger or Paladin, or for that matter the fighter. I give it a B+

General comments:

1. Unarmed Strike Damage increase: AWESOME - when combined with changes that already enhance unarmed strrikes. The increased unarmed strike damage is a bonus and to be honest with the improvements to unarmed strikes overall any more would be OP. People are focused on the damage, and if unarmed strikes did not change themselves, this would not be that big of a deal but the power in the new unarmed strikes is the control.

2. Weapon Mastery: Good. Trading Monk weapon damage for Weapon Mastery is a good trade. Not great or over the top but good. Working with light weapons and nick is going to be top tier damage at low levels, especially if you can take a feat or 1-level fighter dip to get the two weapon fighting style.

3. Step of the Wind: Awesome. This is a huge improvement and when combined with the Monk's speed it will make this the most mobile class by a country mile.

4. Deflect missiles - Meh: minor buff but still not worth it. Probably not a good use of Di until high levels and at that point you probably are not going to reduce damage to 0. To tell you the truth, throwing the weapon back should be an option (with Di) any time a ranged attack with a weapon does 0 damage. So on a miss you can throw it back in addition to when you reduce the damage. That would make it better.

5. Limiting Stunning Strike: Good - This is an improvement. I don't know how many times I have seen Monks use FOB and stunning strike 4 times on a turn and then complain they don't have enough Ki. I think this will mean more Di available for Patient Defense which is really generally the best class use of Ki.

6. Heightened Metabolism: Bad - This is designed to elminate the Ki shortage, but it compeltely upside down. It comes online when the shortage is mostly over (especially when changing Stunning Strike). What the Monk needs in Ki is more at levels 2-6. It would have been better if they just scaled Di differently 4Di at level 2, 5Di at levels 3-4, 6 Di at levels 5-6 and then go 1 per level from there.

7. Subclasses: Disappointed - Taking away spells is never a good idea and as such I am not a fan of the new Shadow Monk or Elements Monk. I think they destroyed what was the best Monk subclass with the changes to shadow. This new version may be better in combat in some corner cases where Darkness is not harming the party but overall it is not going to be as effective in all phases of the game. They should have just given the Shadow Monk free darkvision 120' and taken away the requirement to see a target to use shadowstep. Elements Monk kind of lost its niche and is a much more restrictive/somple subclass with fewer options. Way of the hand is improved a bit I think.

8. Loss of Ki-Fueled attack: Bad - Why did they take this away. This was awesome when combined with subclass abilities.


Things I wished they changed but didn't:

1. More Monk Weapons: Glaives (Kumura), Longswords (Kantana) and Flails (Nunchuchs) should all be Monk Weapons.

2. I would like to see them get rid of FOB: FOB does not bring a lot to the class I don't think.

 

[Clint_L]

So I originally read this title as "What do people think about the new Monk Reactions in PT6" .... and I was like "I don't remember many reactions other than revised deflect missiles and slow fall let me see what this thread is about"

Anyway, now that I understand the question:

I like the new Monk, I think it is an improvement to what is already a viable class. I actually like weapon mastery here, where I do not really like it on the Ranger or Paladin, or for that matter the fighter. I give it a B+

Really? Monks can no longer take martial feats, get almost no benefit from weapon mastery (they can barely even use it), and stunning strikes is nerfed, but this is an improvement? Your argument for stunning strikes in particular is confusing: you seem to be arguing that nerfing it is good because it was so bad that monks shouldn't have been wasting their di on it to begin with...so making it worse actually makes it better. And you don't address that it also had its duration nerfed.

That's a B+? You should watch the Deep Dive on the UA monk.

 

[Clint_L]

My take on the updated sub-classes:

Warrior of Shadow
Level 3: BUFF, with caveats. Losing Pass without Trace really sucks, because monks don't have a lot of out of combat options that help the whole party, and PwT is one of the best. However, getting Darkness for only 1 di point is better, PLUS you can move it, and flat out gaining darkvision is necessary to the class. This puts the pieces in place that the Shadow monk can build on later (similar to how Mercy monk also builds on its level three abilities).

Level 6: BUFF. This just works so much better with the level 3 abilities, making the Shadow monk a battlefield opportunist on par with an Echo Knight.

Level 11: BUFF. This continues the trend by building on the previous ability, whereas the old Cloak of Shadows was just kind of clunky and pointless.

Level 17: BUFF: The old capstone really had nothing to do with the subclass's theme. This one makes you into a combination of Kitty Pryde and Batman, more or less, which is super cool.

Overall, Way of Shadow works really well, and if the base class is improved could be almost as good as Mercy monk.

Warrior of the Elements
Level 3: BUFF (but still not great). It's a buff because the old version of this subclass is terrible so anything is an improvement. The cantrip is more or less a wash - slightly different but who cares? Being able to change your damage type to fire/cold/acid/lightning is basically a gimmick that will seldom do much, but I like the flavour. Being able to move the target up to 10' on a failed save is okay, though other classes have stronger versions of this (c.f. warlock). The extended reach is nice. There should be a small damage buff added.

Level 6: BUFF???. Again, this is better than the previous version but still not great. 2 di (a third of your pool when you get this ability) to do a 3d8 (scaling) AoE at range is kind of underwhelming when wizards are casting fireballs for a smaller share of their resources at this level. But the potential is there - what if the damage instead became 2 martial arts dice PER di spent, maybe up to a maximum of your proficiency bonus? That would get it there.

Level 11: BUFF. This is great, and fits the subclass fantasy really well.

Level 17: BUFF. Cool - possibly a bit underpowered for a capstone, but again the flavour is on point.

Overall, Warrior of the Elements is totally different, much more thematically cohesive, and almost good. It just needs a bit of fine tuning.

Warrior of the Hand
Level 3: NERF. It's the same as before (i.e. weak)...except now they've added a saving throw to "addled." WTF? It already sucked, but you could think of situations where you might use it in coordination with a teammate. Now it is completely pointless. All of these should be baseline to the monk as their version of weapon mastery for unarmed strikes.

Level 6: NERF. Both versions of this suck, but I will argue that the new version sucks harder. The old version used your action but didn't cost resources and gave you a decent heal - 3x monk level. The new version costs a bonus action AND a di point but gives you a much worse heal, though you can use it more often, as many times as your wisdom modifier per long rest (but you shouldn't because the action economy on it is TERRIBLE).

This ability is particularly bad when you look at it in the context of a Mercy monk's level 6 ability: they can do the exact same heal as often as they have ki/di points, and they can do it to whoever they want, not just themselves. And on top of the heal can also remove one condition from the target: blinded, deafened, poisoned, paralyzed, or stunned. OR they can instead choose to do that same amount of necrotic damage to their target, succeeding automatically, and inflict the poisoned condition with no save, which is an amazing debuff. Oh, and they get it as part of their flurry of blows, meaning they keep the initial unarmed strike, which Warrior of the Hand has to sacrifice to get their crappy little heal.

How did WotC look at the Mercy monk ability and then decide to give this garbage can version of it to Warrior of the Hand? It boggles the mind.

Level 11: BUFF. But it's not great - it lets you use Step of the Wind without spending di points...which is how Step of the Wind should work for all monks, baseline. However, the old tranquility ability was such trash that anything is an improvement.

Level 17: NERF. This is a straight damage nerf to what is currently a horribly designed ability, Quivering Palm.

The old version of this ability sounded great but was really not. The reality is that the BBEG almost never died to this, because of high saving throws, legendary resistances, etc., so in actuality you were spending two turns to do 55 points of damage, which at level 17+ is pretty unimpressive. However, if you ever did manage to use it to take out a BBEG, then it was stupidly broken. So either way, someone felt bad - usually the monk because it almost never delivered on its promise, but on rare occasions the DM because their final battle got ruined.

This new version avoids setting anyone up for failed expectations but also is significantly nerfed. The old version had a damage range of 55-infinity. The new one has a damage range of 41-82 (averages, in both cases). Probably your target saves or resists at this level so...it's not that much better than just attacking, especially when you factor in the extra cost to use it (a level 17 monk has base damage of 4D12+20, or 46).

Overall, Warrior of the Hand is terrible and should be completely scrapped. Start over, WotC.

Warrior of Mercy
Unchanged from Tasha's, and therefore still the best monk sub-class. Dodged a bullet!

 

[mellored]

So, to be useful to you, it has to be used on your first attack, and land, and you may be able to, if you spend another ki, get some attacks with advantage. Because, let us not forget, that is all stun offers to the monk, advantage.

No.
It also offers a turn of not being attacked. It is complete defense.
Also, it's a team game.

That said... instead of the once per turn, I would do
Once you stun the target, you can not stun it again until you take a short rest.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No.
It also offers a turn of not being attacked. It is complete defense.

This was true before it was nerfed

Also, it's a team game.

This was ALSO true before it was nerfed.


So, here is the question, is the change in timing to indicate to us that this ability is not meant to increase offense whatsoever? Because previously it prevented being attacked AND gave the monk advantage. Now it can only, maybe, do the defense.

That said... instead of the once per turn, I would do
Once you stun the target, you can not stun it again until you take a short rest.

Oh, so just nerf it even harder. Cool.

How about we just remove it entirely and give us something that is useful and people WON'T try to nerf into being useless.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I like the new Monk, I think it is an improvement to what is already a viable class. I actually like weapon mastery here, where I do not really like it on the Ranger or Paladin, or for that matter the fighter. I give it a B+

What about weapon mastery being so useless on this monk is meant to be good?

1. Unarmed Strike Damage increase: AWESOME - when combined with changes that already enhance unarmed strrikes. The increased unarmed strike damage is a bonus and to be honest with the improvements to unarmed strikes overall any more would be OP. People are focused on the damage, and if unarmed strikes did not change themselves, this would not be that big of a deal but the power in the new unarmed strikes is the control.

False. Monks are actually the absolute WORST at the control aspect of unarmed strikes. Nothing in the Monk class changes the DC calculation, meaning all of their grapples and shoves are done via strength, one of the monk's dump stats. It is actually likely that if you use the Unarmed Fighting Style on a fighter, paladin or barbarian, monks are now the worst unarmed fighters.

The damage increase is nice, but if you scroll back in the thread a bit you'll see the charts I stole from Treantmonk, and they show us that even with that damage increase, a level 13 monk is doing less damage than basically everyone.

2. Weapon Mastery: Good. Trading Monk weapon damage for Weapon Mastery is a good trade. Not great or over the top but good. Working with light weapons and nick is going to be top tier damage at low levels, especially if you can take a feat or 1-level fighter dip to get the two weapon fighting style.

Sure, from level 1 to 4 it is top-tier damage. Eventually you are trading a d8+mod or d10+mod for a 1d6+mof followed by 1d4 no modifier.

And, frankly, no one else is trading damage for these masteries. So why should the monk, who does the lowest damage of all the martial classes, be forced to ALSO trade damage for the same weapon masteries everyone else has?

3. Step of the Wind: Awesome. This is a huge improvement and when combined with the Monk's speed it will make this the most mobile class by a country mile.

I agree, this was a good change.

4. Deflect missiles - Meh: minor buff but still not worth it. Probably not a good use of Di until high levels and at that point you probably are not going to reduce damage to 0. To tell you the truth, throwing the weapon back should be an option (with Di) any time a ranged attack with a weapon does 0 damage. So on a miss you can throw it back in addition to when you reduce the damage. That would make it better.

It isn't a buff at all. They've traded die+mod for two dice. That's basically the exact same. And since it is a dex save for nothing, it can no longer crit or benefit from other attack modifiers. If anything, it is a minor nerf.

5. Limiting Stunning Strike: Good - This is an improvement. I don't know how many times I have seen Monks use FOB and stunning strike 4 times on a turn and then complain they don't have enough Ki. I think this will mean more Di available for Patient Defense which is really generally the best class use of Ki.

"Monks spent too much ki trying to make this good ability work, so now we've nerfed it so they can only try once, now they won't waste ki trying to make it work"

That isn't a good thing. It is a heavy nerf that turns this into an ability most people just won't bother using.

6. Heightened Metabolism: Bad - This is designed to elminate the Ki shortage, but it compeltely upside down. It comes online when the shortage is mostly over (especially when changing Stunning Strike). What the Monk needs in Ki is more at levels 2-6. It would have been better if they just scaled Di differently 4Di at level 2, 5Di at levels 3-4, 6 Di at levels 5-6 and then go 1 per level from there.

I do agree there were better solutions to this.

7. Subclasses: Disappointed - Taking away spells is never a good idea and as such I am not a fan of the new Shadow Monk or Elements Monk. I think they destroyed what was the best Monk subclass with the changes to shadow. This new version may be better in combat in some corner cases where Darkness is not harming the party but overall it is not going to be as effective in all phases of the game. They should have just given the Shadow Monk free darkvision 120' and taken away the requirement to see a target to use shadowstep. Elements Monk kind of lost its niche and is a much more restrictive/somple subclass with fewer options. Way of the hand is improved a bit I think.

Way of the Hand is nerfed nearly into the ground, I don't see how you could think it was improved, unless you have blinders on and only looked at the level 11 ability.

And, Four Elements "niche" was "being a terrible choice" it is literally one of the single most homebrewed options in the game. Yes, this version is simpler, but it is at the very least EFFECTIVE. No more trap options, no more spending all your ki on a single meager spell. Do I wish it had some more utility? Sure, but this is at least a subclass that won't hurt to see someone want to play anymore.

I do agree losing the spells for Shadow Monk was bad. I think just give them the other spells back and we are good.

8. Loss of Ki-Fueled attack: Bad - Why did they take this away. This was awesome when combined with subclass abilities.

Agreed.

Things I wished they changed but didn't:

1. More Monk Weapons: Glaives (Kumura), Longswords (Kantana) and Flails (Nunchuchs) should all be Monk Weapons.

Glaives and polearms I agree with. Longsword is eh, I'm fine just leaving that to the Kensei.

No one should ever be fooled into thinking Nunchuks are a viable weapon, even for fantasy.

2. I would like to see them get rid of FOB: FOB does not bring a lot to the class I don't think.

If they paired it with a way for monks to actually deal decent damage, I'd agree. As it stands, I question what monks you are playing if you don't think their only good offensive option brings anything of value.