D&D (2024) If there are no half-elves or half-orcs will there be Tieflings (half fiends)?

[Scribe]

In what way are they overcomplicating anything?

By changing it at all.

 

[CreamCloud0]

That's kinda missing the point of what I said though.

Species traits come from the racial write-up. So our Dragon/Dwarf uses Dragonborn traits of breath weapon and energy resistance.

and what about any of their dwarven biological traits though? their +1hp sturdy body, poison resistance, tremmorsense(dwarves got that in the recent packets didn't they?)

Then, you take a background that gives you Tool Use for, say, Mason Tools. ((Note, our hypothetical Mixed Ancestry background was just that hypothetical)). Then you take a class which grants your weapon proficiencies in Martial Weapons and poof, the only trait you are missing from either Dragonborn or Dwarf is Stonecunning. Which, frankly, a mixed heritage species write-up might not actually have anyway - after all, half-elves don't get elven weapon proficiencies. And, frankly, expertise on a single skill check is hardly the defining trait of a dwarf.

so you're saying to play a mixed species character you have to be sacrificing resources to customise your character in other ways just to get to the starting line of a full thematic package that non mixed characters start at?

Sure, if you're Dwarfborn PC is a wizard, he won't have proficiency in axe. Then again, he's a wizard. He's never going to use that axe anyway, so, who cares?

okay so, maybe the idea of innate 'species weapon proficiency' is a little crass cause we don't have separate choices for species and culture BUT if any wizard would be the one to wield an axe i would expect it to be the one with dwarven lineage, innate weapon proficiencies are made for using weapons on classes that don't usually get them.

The point being, your character's features are not solely determined by species. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. I just created a Dwarfborn character using the existing rules without any difficulty at all. Is it really that hard to do this with nearly any combination of two races?

the point is you need to use up a bunch of your customisation to even start where others are starting. so while they can be a acolyte or a town guard you're burning your background to get something they got in their species pick.

 

[Hussar]

No.

Because acolyte and/or town guard have so many overlapping elements with species that you aren’t losing anything.

As it is, you wind up avoiding certain backgrounds because of what you get from species. People don’t want to “waste” choices by getting the same thing from two sources.

Remember, a mixed species already gets less of what each parent species gets.

Put it another way. What unique racial feature do half elves get? Because if the answer is none, then the problem doesn’t exist.

 

[CreamCloud0]

No.

Because acolyte and/or town guard have so many overlapping elements with species that you aren’t losing anything.

As it is, you wind up avoiding certain backgrounds because of what you get from species. People don’t want to “waste” choices by getting the same thing from two sources.

Remember, a mixed species already gets less of what each parent species gets.

Put it another way. What unique racial feature do half elves get? Because if the answer is none, then the problem doesn’t exist.

look, what you're saying from our perspective, comparatively, is basically
"you don't need the ability to play a multiclass sorcerer/ranger, just play sorcerer and use your species and background to pick wood-elf and outlander and that's enough to be a ranger, maybe take magic initiate:druid for your 1st level feat, martial weapons? primal spells? medium armour? those aren't unique features lots of classes get those, the problem doesn't exist"

it's not just about half elves, it's about being able to play any mixed species character in a mechanically significant way without having to sacrifice half the rest of our base level customisation choices to do achieve it.

how hard would it really be to add a note in each species entry saying "if you play a half-[this species] you get X and Y traits, and a choice between trait A, B or C"

 

[Remathilis]

how hard would it really be to add a note in each species entry saying "if you play a half-[this species] you get X and Y traits, and a choice between trait A, B or C"

Depending on the traits? Very.

My worry is that any sort of ala carte system will have to be redesigned to account for mixing and matching. You have to weigh offensive abilities like breath weapons and spells against movement (flight, swimming), defensive (teleports, damage resistance) natural attacks (horns and claws) etc. Simply put, you run the risk of people swapping out minor abilities they get from class (like the perception skill) for major ones (like free spellcasting). Plus you need to retrofit every existing race in 5e to make use of the new system. They would need to be built from the ground up again.

Honestly, there is no good answer to this problem that doesn't require major changes to the system, and WotC isn't making major changes this time around.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

how hard would it really be to add a note in each species entry saying "if you play a half-[this species] you get X and Y traits, and a choice between trait A, B or C"

That might be a possible solution, I can very well live with. I think that would even be my favoured solution.

So maybe half humans would get everything except the extra feat. And the elf would get everything I would put into half elven feat. Which is fey ancestry, charm and sleep immunity and either darkvision or a second skill choice (or default perception).

But then probably people would still not be happy, because that exact half x / half y needs an abitlity that is excluded for half species...

 

[Hussar]

look, what you're saying from our perspective, comparatively, is basically
"you don't need the ability to play a multiclass sorcerer/ranger, just play sorcerer and use your species and background to pick wood-elf and outlander and that's enough to be a ranger, maybe take magic initiate:druid for your 1st level feat, martial weapons? primal spells? medium armour? those aren't unique features lots of classes get those, the problem doesn't exist"

it's not just about half elves, it's about being able to play any mixed species character in a mechanically significant way without having to sacrifice half the rest of our base level customisation choices to do achieve it.

how hard would it really be to add a note in each species entry saying "if you play a half-[this species] you get X and Y traits, and a choice between trait A, B or C"

You are not equating class to species and that’s not a good comparison. A class has what, a dozen or more different elements of varying power. Heck rangers get half casting. Nothing in species comes remotely close to that.

How about we compare apples to apples eh? Species gives you three to five traits. Most of the traits are replicated either in classes or in backgrounds. There’s maybe two or three things that don’t. And maybe two of those are iconic to the species.

Which you can very easily get by simply choosing a species.

It’s really not that hard.

 

[Maxperson]

Put it another way. What unique racial feature do half elves get? Because if the answer is none, then the problem doesn’t exist.

Half-elves get...

Darkvision
Fey Ancestry
Skill Versatility

Humans don't get that. Elves don't get that. Only half-elves get that combination. What WotC wants us to do is play a full blooded elf or a full blooded human and then put lipstick on the pig and just make it look different. That's quite frankly stupid. The offspring of two different species is not going to be 100% one or the other with regard to racial traits, but instead a combination of the two.

 

[Remathilis]

Half-elves get...

Darkvision
Fey Ancestry
Skill Versatility

Humans don't get that. Elves don't get that. Only half-elves get that combination. What WotC wants us to do is play a full blooded elf or a full blooded human and then put lipstick on the pig and just make it look different. That's quite frankly stupid. The offspring of two different species is not going to be 100% one or the other with regard to racial traits, but instead a combination of the two.

Darkvision is shared with elf.
Fey ancestry is shared with elf.
Skill versatility is akin to what variant humans get.

An "elf" with the skilled feat at level one 100% covers everything mechanically that a half elf gets, plus more. This isn't like trying to recreate a dragonborn's breath or an aarakroca's wings, half-elf is 100% doable under the "refluff" option AND you get trance, spells, and two more skills to boot. You're coming out ahead.

Part of the problem is that without the extremely favorable ASI, the half-elf is bad as a species. You could add more, but there isn't a lot of design room. You could make them essentially elves who trade spells for skills, or humans that trade inspiration for darkvision. But the design space is very narrow because humans and elves are already extremely similar. You'd have to invent something whole clothe that isn't already an elf or human trait. Doable, but at that point you're making a brand new species anyway.

 

[Maxperson]

Darkvision is shared with elf.
Fey ancestry is shared with elf.
Skill versatility is akin to what variant humans get.

Right. The half-elf is appropriately a blend of the two.

An "elf" with the skilled feat at level one 100% covers everything mechanically that a half elf gets, plus more. This isn't like trying to recreate a dragonborn's breath or an aarakroca's wings, half-elf is 100% doable under the "refluff" option AND you get trance, spells, and two more skills to boot. You're coming out ahead.

So now there's a feat tax if I want my half-elf to be a half-elf and not a pure elf or pure human? The race should provide the blend of abilities, allowing me to use my feat where I want and not on a tax.

Part of the problem is that without the extremely favorable ASI, the half-elf is bad as a species.

That's a different issue. The solution is not to make them even worse as a species by making them pure human or pure elf, but to give them a good blend of abilities that puts them on par.