D&D (2024) If there are no half-elves or half-orcs will there be Tieflings (half fiends)?

[Remathilis]

Right. The half-elf is appropriately a blend of the two.

So now there's a feat tax if I want my half-elf to be a half-elf and not a pure elf or pure human? The race should provide the blend of abilities, allowing me to use my feat where I want and not on a tax.

That's a different issue. The solution is not to make them even worse as a species by making them pure human or pure elf, but to give them a good blend of abilities that puts them on par.

To be honest, I'd make "half-elf" an elven lineage (like high, wood and dark) which trades out spellcasting for 2 bonus skills. You'd be mechanically superior to the 14 half-elf and then you could decide who the non-elf parent is as flavor.

(I personally think the elf race needs more work, especially compared to the elves from MotM, but that's a different discussion).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

To be honest, I'd make "half-elf" an elven lineage (like high, wood and dark) which trades out spellcasting for 2 bonus skills. You'd be mechanically superior to the 14 half-elf and then you could decide who the non-elf parent is as flavor.

(I personally think the elf race needs more work, especially compared to the elves from MotM, but that's a different discussion).

I think we need at least 10 more elf variants...

no, in all honesty. Having a sidebar for half races just like for multiclass characters might be the best way to go.

If only one of your parents is elven, you get...

If only one of your parents is orcish, you get...

if only one of your parents is human, you get...

And by that formula, and very little actual space in your book, you get half species that are more or less balanced.

A la carte options are way harder to balance and invites power gamers. Anything less seems problematic for backwards compatibility and flavour.

 

[Hussar]

Half-elves get...

Darkvision
Fey Ancestry
Skill Versatility

Humans don't get that. Elves don't get that. Only half-elves get that combination. What WotC wants us to do is play a full blooded elf or a full blooded human and then put lipstick on the pig and just make it look different. That's quite frankly stupid. The offspring of two different species is not going to be 100% one or the other with regard to racial traits, but instead a combination of the two.

Both Darkvision and Fey Ancestry are covered by taking Elf as the parent race. You gain skills from your background. Plus, taking Elf as a parent DOES gain you a bonus skill in Perception. So, basically, you are losing exactly ONE skill. You're telling me that proficiency in Survival is the defining trait of being a half-elf? Seriously?

Why shouldn't the offspring be 100% mechanically one or the other? What are we gaining by having an entire race who differs from the parent by exactly one skill proficiency?

Talk about mountains and molehills. Sheesh.

And, in return for half elves losing one skill proficiency, we gain rules that allow thousands of race combinations that were never seen in official D&D before. I'd call that a serious win.

 

[Maxperson]

Both Darkvision and Fey Ancestry are covered by taking Elf as the parent race. You gain skills from your background. Plus, taking Elf as a parent DOES gain you a bonus skill in Perception. So, basically, you are losing exactly ONE skill. You're telling me that proficiency in Survival is the defining trait of being a half-elf? Seriously?

Two skills of choice are lost, not one skill that is survival. The skill versatility trait gives two skills of choice. You also don't get to dictate that perception be one of the two skills from the skill versatility trait. Nothing else matters because everything else can be had AND you get skill versatility. I could pick perception from class or background and not worry about elf. Why do you get to pigeon hole me into the new crappy half-race "system" for no good reason?

And yes, a MIX OF SPECIES TRAITS is defining for half elves. Being a full elf + a feat tax or being a full elf + a background that you would have had anyway doesn't make up for that loss.

Why shouldn't the offspring be 100% mechanically one or the other?

Because it's absurd to think that genetics always ends up that way.

And, in return for half elves losing one skill proficiency, we gain rules that allow thousands of race combinations that were never seen in official D&D before. I'd call that a serious win.

They lose two skills AND racial identity.

 

[Remathilis]

So now there's a feat tax if I want my half-elf to be a half-elf and not a pure elf or pure human? The race should provide the blend of abilities, allowing me to use my feat where I want and not on a tax.

Considering that the number 1 suggestion in this thread was to turn half-races into level 1 feats, I'm not seeing the problem.

The problem is that you either create a system of menus where people cherry pick the best parents combos, you create thousands of separate species for each parent combo, you do the "pick one set of mechanics and fluff the rest" or you decide some combos yield offspring and others don't. Each answer has its downside, so it's a matter of picking your poison. I'd rather have mixed parentage be cosmetic than to have yet another drow/dragonborn because some charops said that combo has the best synergy.

 

[Hussar]

They lose two skills AND racial identity.

Nope.

They lose one skill. And no identity at all. Either they go with Elf parent and are a very elfy half elf. Or they go with a human parent and become more unique.

Why should every single mixed heritage character be identical? That's not how it works when you have mixed heritage. Some people lean one way or the other. You are never just the "mathematical average" of both parents. That's not how it works. Maybe you are a half-elf raised in elven lands, but, you use the Human traits. How does this impact your family life? Your upbringing. The fact that all the other children around you remember their past lives but you don't impacts your life how? Or, conversely, maybe you grew up in human dominated lands. But, you see in the dark and you remember your past lives. What impact does that have?

The path to recreating a 2014 half elf is right there. Calling it a "feat tax" when your first level feat is limited anyway doesn't make it so. You want to be exactly the same as a 2014 half elf? Poof. Done. It's entirely possible and you lose nothing. So, nope.

The amount of hand holding people expect from WotC is frankly astonishing. It's right there. You can, absolutely, recreate the 2014 half elf without any problem.

 

[Maxperson]

Considering that the number 1 suggestion in this thread was to turn half-races into level 1 feats, I'm not seeing the problem.

I instantly have a problem with that feat tax. I can pick elf AND have a level 1 feat, or I can take half-elf and use up my level 1 feat to pick it. Horrible, horrible idea that made people very angry during 4e. Feat taxes are awful.

The problem is that you either create a system of menus where people cherry pick the best parents combos, you create thousands of separate species for each parent combo, you do the "pick one set of mechanics and fluff the rest" or you decide some combos yield offspring and others don't. Each answer has its downside, so it's a matter of picking your poison. I'd rather have mixed parentage be cosmetic than to have yet another drow/dragonborn because some charops said that combo has the best synergy.

I would go with the option not listed. Put in the major ones. Half-elf, half-angel, half-demon, half-orc, and with human as the other half. WotC creates those individually to be on par with the other races. For obscure ones like half-loxodon/half-merfolk, there would be instructions in the DMG for the creation of half races and the DM with or without the player can just make it.

 

[Maxperson]

Nope.

They lose one skill.

No. They lose two skills. The elven racial can't be assumed to be useful since it can't pick any skill and perception is easily taken as part of background or class. Getting perception twice doesn't do anything. Plus, what if I don't want perception at all. Currently I can do that with half-elves and have my two skills. If we do your thing I'm forced to select perception, costing me a skill that I'd rather have as something different.

And no identity at all. Either they go with Elf parent and are a very elfy half elf. Or they go with a human parent and become more unique.

Or they go with a mix and are...........................a half-elf regardless of where they are. I mean, you've never played a half-elf as a half-elf? You play them as elves or humans? What's the point of even picking it as a race if you aren't going to roleplay it as what it is?

Why should every single mixed heritage character be identical? That's not how it works when you have mixed heritage.

Er, that's what they are doing now. Every last one of them is either full elf or full human. And NONE of them is a half-elf, since genetics don't work that way. You don't get to mix species, end up looking genetically different but being 100% identical to a single parent. What they are going with is worse than giving them all a single, but at least half-elven identity.

Your argument there is basically, "Well, right now it's somewhat off with regard to genetics, so let's just toss out the baby with the bath water and not give a fig!!!"

Calling it a "feat tax" when your first level feat is limited anyway doesn't make it so.

It's factually so. I can have a race and pick a 1st level feat, or I can be taxed that feat and be forced to use it in order to be a half-elf. If you are being forced to use it to be a race when someone else can be a race AND have a 1st level feat, you are being taxed your 1st level feat.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I don't necessarily think that half-elves should just be half humans traits + half elves traits. Instead it should have some of its own truely unique features. For example half-orc has savage attacks, despite neither parent species having this trait.

Irl hybrid species don't look like exact half and half replicas of their parents. They often display completely unique features. For example ligers are larger than both parents. While narlugas have an entirely different diet compared to either parent species.

 

[Hussar]

Ahh. We’re conflating mechanics with genetics now. I think I see why we’re just not going to agree here.

I’ve said all I’m going to productively say on this, so that me out.