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What is the single best science fiction novel of all time?

Lots of good discussion about Dune in this thread.

Has anybody else read the Dune Encyclopaedia? It gives the "scientific" background to lots of the elements of the books, from Frank Herbert's notes. So I don't consider Dune to be fantasy (although I used to). If I had to pick one book for this thread then I'd pick Dune.

However, I'd like to give another shout out to Consider Phlebas. I don't think many people consider it to be Iain M Banks best work, but it's my favourite, maybe because it was the first one I read and it make a big impression on me. Although I really like Player of Games as well (I expect we all would, since we hang around on this site).
 

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Dioltach

Legend
The Stainless Steel Rat is very good.
You've got to love Slippery Jim diGriz. I think it's in The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge where he has to get through a series of locked fences. "The lock was so simple I could have picked it with my eyes closed, standing on one leg and with one hand behind my back. In fact, just to prove a point, when I came to the next fence that's exactly what I did."

(And I'm not saying I married my wife because she reminds me of Angelina, but the similarities are definitely there.)
 

HaroldTheHobbit

Adventurer
Nah, good literature is good literature, whatever bucket we put it in. Necromancer is great because it is great literature (not Dune great, but little is), not because of jumping through some specific genre hoops.
I don't agree with you, and thankfully we are allowed to have different opinions and perspectives :)
 



Most of these writers can write engaging characters (not so sure about Crichton, he would be my pick for "overrated"), but only do so when it's relevant.
Would definitely agree re: Crichton. He's at his best when quickly sketching characters with simple motivations in difficult situations, particularly survival. Every time he's tried to write more complex or nuanced characters it's just ended up with them being unpleasant people with either implausible or stereotypical backstories (or both!), and often projecting some very questionable views (verging on the conspiratorial at times).
The trouble with having subtext is it can be easily missed. How many people watched the movie version of Starship Troopers and thought the humans were the good guys?
Fewer than the novel?

Also, I think people today are better at detecting undercurrents and subtext in movies than a lot of people were in the 1990s, even though today fewer people seem to be literate in the language of cinema. Maybe just the proliferation of memes, trolling, internet videos and so on, so many of them ironic/sarcastic that has keyed people to recognise Starship Troopers for what it was - essentially an elaborate troll. Whereas in the 1990s, you basically had to have seen propaganda movies to understand what Verhoeven was trying to convey - I think a lot of people got a sense that "something was off", but couldn't exactly place it. I remember, when I saw it at the cinema with my brother and a friend, we came out and me and my brother are laughing (having watched countless propaganda movies, hell at that point we'd even made ironic ones back with Stunt Island's moviemaker!), but our friend, who is a very intelligent guy, but has never seen a propaganda movie a day in his life was like "What's this movie actually trying to say? Are we supposed to take it seriously or not?" - so he knew something was wrong, but didn't quite get it.

With the novel, which is just an amazing mess of wildly contradictory political messaging, borderline accidental BDSM fetish stuff (a classic often seen in SF and fantasy - I'll take intentional BDSM fetish over accidental any day of the week), confused ideas about how such a society could even function (which Heinlein later tried, rather unsuccessfully, to retcon), and the most gung-ho and frankly pretty racist bollocks possible (you can't be calling humanoid aliens "skinnies" and directly advocating for their genocide then when the US is engaging in wars in Asia with very similar racist terms for Asian people, especially not with the long-term "Oriental Horde" racism going on, especially given the implied "solution" (ahem) to the "Oriental Horde" was always "regretful genocide"*), I find it amazing anyone could see the humans as "good guys", but I think more people manage it than the books. It takes a really wild "I believe everything these humans are saying, even though they contradict themselves multiple times!" attitude. I've rarely seen a book undermine it's own thesis as effectively - and certainly never seen one where it was unintentional.

(The only recent SF book I've seen really wreck it's own thesis was Leech, which is a novel with a totally wild and cool vibe and ideas, but tries to draw a direct moral equivalence between an entity which essentially possesses a few hundred people planetwide - admittedly not fully informed volunteers - and uses them to improve the lives of billions, and has no greater goal than that (not even self-preservation, really), with an entity which seeks to violently dominate and destroy literally all life but itself. And it's like, nah mate. Those aren't the same. It doesn't matter how mad your characters get about the former, they just aren't as bad as the latter. Not even in the same ballpark. But the entire emotional arc of the book and its thesis relies on you agreeing that these things are morally equally bad.)

* = The Mote in God's Eye has some similar problems re: the "Oriental Horde" and clearly intentional parallels with the Moties. Luckily the story is so wild and imaginative that largely fades into the background (except when the protagonist is like "Yo genocide is cool y'all"), but does exist as very uncomfortable context.
 
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Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Two threads posted literally the same minute. Whizbang's has more responses do far, but the quality level in here is very high.

HMMM.

Guess I'm posting here and hoping for the merger.

I think I have to give it to Dune. There are some Heinleins I'd be very tempted by, and a dark horse like Neuromancer could get a shout in. Also some sentimental faves like John Steakley's Armor, which retroactively boosts Heinlein's Starship Troopers too.
Coming back to mention another sentimental favorite, which I'm surprised I didn't think of last week- Speaker for the Dead by Card. In retrospect there are some issues with it, but man did I love this book. And the sci-fi elements here are really good and important.
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
With the novel, which is just an amazing mess of wildly contradictory political messaging, borderline accidental BDSM fetish stuff (a classic often seen in SF and fantasy - I'll take intentional BDSM fetish over accidental any day of the week), confused ideas about how such a society could even function (which Heinlein later tried, rather unsuccessfully, to retcon), and the most gung-ho and frankly pretty racist bollocks possible (you can't be calling humanoid aliens "skinnies" and directly advocating for their genocide then when the US is engaging in wars in Asia with very similar racist terms for Asian people, especially not with the long-term "Oriental Horde" racism going on), I find it amazing anyone could see the humans as "good guys", but I think more people manage it than the books. It takes a really wild "I believe everything these humans are saying, even though they contradict themselves multiple times!" attitude. I've rarely seen a book undermine it's own thesis as effectively - and certainly never seen one where it was unintentional.
Some of these points I think are valid, or at least I can see where they're coming from, but a couple of them have me genuinely confused.

"borderline accidental BDSM fetish stuff"- Where exactly?

"humanoid aliens "skinnies" and directly advocating for their genocide"- I don't remember the book advocating for their genocide at all. My recollection is that part of the point of the raid/attack made on them in chapter 1 and how it was conducted was that the Terrans were hoping to encourage them to switch sides from aiding the bugs. And that there's a mention later that the effort to get them to switch sides was eventually successful.
 

Some of these points I think are valid, or at least I can see where they're coming from, but a couple of them have me genuinely confused.

"borderline accidental BDSM fetish stuff"- Where exactly?

"humanoid aliens "skinnies" and directly advocating for their genocide"- I don't remember the book advocating for their genocide at all. My recollection is that part of the point of the raid/attack made on them in chapter 1 and how it was conducted was that the Terrans were hoping to encourage them to switch sides from aiding the bugs. And that there's a mention later that the effort to get them to switch sides was eventually successful.
The accidental BDSM stuff is in how he enthusiastically he writes about corporal punishment. You often see this in writers with a fetish they don't know they have (c.f. Terry Goodkind).

Re: the skinnies I'd have to re-read the novel, which is not going to happen, but as I recall, their attitude is "either they change sides or we commit regretful genocide". It's far from the only SF novel from the 1940s through 1980s (and even a bit in the 1990s) where "regretful genocide" (often of a species that seems to be coded in a vaguely Asian way, or way that reflects paranoiac fears re: Asia) is advocated as virtuous or at least "a necessary evil".
 

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