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D&D General What is player agency to you?

My line of thinking here is that if we're concerned with only evaluating the fiction as it is the GM really should not be thinking in terms of the exact steps needed to accomplish X. They should instead be evaluating each action taken as it goes and assess what the impact of that individual action should be. It's part of why when I run more sandbox-oriented play, I try not to think about things an NPC would never do but try to just assess what they would do in the moment regardless of what they might think afterwards.
I'm not so sure. I find it good to know the NPC, even more so the important ones. They are 'set'. They don't just change on a whim.

Or to put it another way: instead of starting from a RPG design that assumed rock-solid adherence by the GM to the hidden information (ie Gygaxian dungeon crawling) and then illusionistically departing from that to generate the sort of experience you describe, I prefer to go back to the foundations and adopt a different approach altogether to establishing the content of the shared fiction and working out what happens next.
But what is an example of this? You say that players can never alter game reality independent of the GM....but that is the ONLY way a GM and Player GM can "work together". Otherwise it is always "GM makes and controls everything always", and player can make a vague suggestion once in a while. And...maybe the GM will accept and use what the player says.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I think this is where we sort of split, IMHO. The 'right actions' as I see it are simply "the actions the PCs took" assuming they bear at all on the question at hand.
Yeah, I believe in the value of hidden information. Perfectly fine with it. Make an effort that makes sense in the context of the setting as a PC, and we can work with it. But its not just anything.
 

I'm not so sure. I find it good to know the NPC, even more so the important ones. They are 'set'. They don't just change on a whim.


But what is an example of this? You say that players can never alter game reality independent of the GM....but that is the ONLY way a GM and Player GM can "work together". Otherwise it is always "GM makes and controls everything always", and player can make a vague suggestion once in a while. And...maybe the GM will accept and use what the player says.
In Dungeon World the game itself is first described as (and I'm going to paraphrase instead of going to the trouble to cut and paste here) a game of adventure in a fantastic world where "you and your friends are those heroes." You play to do amazing things, struggle together, and because the world still has so many places to explore. The heroes are explained to be basically D&D-esque fighter, ranger, paladin, wizard, etc. so its a pretty tight thematic space, basically about the same as D&D.

The play loop is simple, its a conversation. The GM says something, one or more players respond to that, the GM says something else, etc. There's no necessary preexisting fiction, its a 'story now' type game (although the GM is allowed to, even expected to, prep to a degree). That is, the GM will say where you are and what you see, and what's going on there, and then one or more players will respond on behalf of their PCs, stating what the PC does. If whatever the player says fulfills the trigger condition for a move, then that move happens. A move is just a 'package' of mechanics, sort of like a spell in D&D perhaps. If no move's trigger conditions are met, then the fiction simply advances. There are no 'out of character' mechanics in DW, though some mechanics could potentially be 'meta-game' in terms of how they work with mechanical game state. Either a player or the GM can always ask questions too.

Most PC moves trigger a throw of 2d6, with a 6 or less indicating that the GM says what happens next and you mark XP. On a 7-9 You do it (whatever action you stated you took) but with complications or trouble. On a 10+ you do it with little trouble. Specific moves may modify these three outcomes to a degree, but the numbers never change and the general results are always in line with above. Every move includes a +ABILITY (one of the 6 D&D ability score modifiers). For example if you described attacking a monster, you have made the Hack and Slash move, roll+STR (2d6 plus your Strength modifier). On a 10+ you deal damage and avoid your enemy's attack. On a 7-9 you both damage each other. It doesn't really say what a 6- result entails, the GM can literally say ANYTHING (though it must meet other general criteria, so not "you die horribly" unless that really is appropriate).

That's it, the other moves cover most of the sort of stuff your average adventurer is likely to do, and each class has a whole list of custom moves, like casting spells, or doing bonus damage, etc.

The GM doesn't really have specific moves, per se (although there are lists of GM moves, they're more like telling you stuff you CAN do, not a restricting list of what you must do). Instead the GM has an Agenda
  • Portray a fantastic world
  • Fill the character's lives with adventure
  • Play to find out what happens
Accomplishing the agenda is achieved by following these principles
  • Draw maps, leave blanks
  • Address the characters, not the players
  • Embrace the fantastic
  • Make a move that follows
  • Never speak the name of your move
  • Give every monster life
  • Name every person
  • Ask questions and use the answers
  • Be a fan of the characters
  • Think dangerous
  • Begin and end with the fiction
  • Think off-screen, too
The GM makes a move when:
  • Everyone looks to you to find out what happens
  • the players give you a golden opportunity
  • they roll a 6-
When the players are just looking to you to find out what happens, you make a soft move, otherwise a hard move. A soft move is one that puts pressure on the PCs, but doesn't cause any really irrevocable harm to them. A hard move brings badness, damage, loss, things get worse in a way that can't be fixed (at least in the short term). "You are lost" is a soft move, a character can get unlost, nothing bad has happened yet. "You fall in a pit and take 7 damage" is a hard move, direct badness. As an example: Joey goes running down the unmapped corridor, hoping to outrun the killer bees; golden opportunity - hard move, he falls in a pit and takes 7 damage. Yeah, he was in a tight spot, but careening down an unknown hallway in a dungeon is asking for trouble, and he got it!

But the point is, whenever the GM does something, says something, describes something, always the agenda is the reason for it, and the principles guide the execution of it. Sure, Joey fell in the pit and injured his leg, but the killer bees flew past him and he might get out alive (be a fan of the characters)!

This is the core of narrativist play, though certainly not the way all such games work. The GM looks at the situation, the characters, their wants, needs, desires, and the established fiction, and pushes things on, puts pressure on them, etc. If they manage to get their 10+'s well, maybe then they make things better, and if you are rolling 2d6+3 (the best modifier available) you got a pretty decent chance of success. Also there are things like 'forward', such as certain successful moves allow a player to get a bonus on a later roll. A smart player will play to the odds and try to trigger moves his PC is good at and get some forward to spend. So, with a bit of luck the characters can pull through, gain loot, gather equipment (more bonuses) and if they RP well and are successful, they get XP and advance in level.

Honestly, the main difference is the GM is not making everything up ahead, instead its mostly done on the fly as you go building up a crazy fantastical world filled with hair-raising danger and thrills!
 

Yeah, I believe in the value of hidden information. Perfectly fine with it. Make an effort that makes sense in the context of the setting as a PC, and we can work with it. But its not just anything.
I'm not really against all forms of hidden information either. I think its fine to reveal stuff when it works for the game, as long as its purpose is not simply manipulative or completely stripping players of any real agency.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Speaking of video games, a lot of players (probably including some in this thread) would likely be shocked at the amount of manipulation and deception many games use. For example, I know of plenty examples were developers or studio/publisher reps lie through their teeth about how their game AI works. Baldur's Gate 3 and their Karmic dice are a very mild example of this kind of manipulation (especially as it's mostly out in the open).
That it is "out in the open" in the first place is part and parcel of why it is tolerable

I honestly don't understand the angry dismissal that perceived agency isn't valuable. I can understand and empathize that some prefer games (video or ttrpg) where they can be sure there is no illusion going on. But so much entertainment is based on illusion.
Do you then believe that perception dictates reality? That if you believe something to be true, that's all that matters?

Because that's literally, exactly what the issue is for me. I don't like being lied to. In fact, I absolutely despise it. If I find out that a video game really is secretly using false, dodgy math, I dislike that--a lot. I generally hold games to a lower standard than live persons, because (a) games are not moral agents, and (b) I understand that coding games is very difficult and thus allow some leeway for technical limitations that are not present when it's two humans discussing things with one another.

And yes, before you say anything, I DO actually look up some of this stuff. And if I find out a game is playing sillybuggers with its random number generation and pretending that it is not doing so, yeah, that tends to ruin my experience of that game.

Perceived agency is a relevant type of agency to consider, as that's the only relevant kind of agency for a lot of players.
You have the statistical data to back up this assertion, yes? Unless "a lot" is simply a squishy "some amount bigger than zero," at which point the claim adds nothing to the conversation.

If I had stayed "truthful" in all of these cases, the sessions would have been boring - the players would have been disappointed their conclusions were mistaken. Letting players build the illusion in this manner is useful and valid.
It worked for you--but you cheated the players by doing so. Something so many illusionism-favoring DMs tell me, when I say that I dislike (random, irrevocable, permanent) death in my game, is that this must imply there are no stakes. But surely this illusionism you describe is far, far worse than that. You have genuinely removed all stakes--because the players cannot fail unless you feel like it. Whatever they think, whatever they do, turns out correct. You will ensure it. You will rewrite the world to suit them.

For effort to have meaning, it must be possible to fail. You have explicitly described illusionism used to prevent the possibility of failure. How is that not a serious blow to the validity of the method? Disappointment is one of the necessary parts of having a genuinely fulfilling experience--because if you can never guess wrong, then what value is there in guessing "right"?

But it can work and it is a valid kind of agency. It isn't purely passive and imagined agency - the way players interact with illusions shape the experience and the narrative.
It absolutely is passive and imagined. No player created anything here. They made a suggestion (without knowing, of course.) You decided, "hey, that idea is better than what I had. I will rewrite the world to make that idea true, and the players will never be able to find out that it wasn't true before, no matter what conflicts that might cause." It is purely passive, as they have no influence here. Only you do. You just happened to take a shine to what they said.

Like...this is the equivalent of a dictator saying that, because he heard someone complain about something on the street and thus said dictator passed laws addressing that problem, it was really the person on the street who exercised agency in dealing with the problem. No! Not in the slightest! It was, and would always be, the dictator doing so. The person on the street had no ability to influence what occurred. They simply (without knowing) provided a suggestion, which the dictator chose (agency!) to act upon.

The more involved players get in this kind of style, the more impact they have. Player agency is exercised through the obligations of the GM to bend reality around player actions.
And here I thought bending reality was the utterly unacceptable thing. Now it's part and parcel of illusionism!

Anyways, this is just one example of a playstyle which has player agency but doesn't adhere to the notion of the game revolving around highly codified authorship of shared fiction (with or without distributed authority) nor does adhere to the notion of a truthful hidden game state prepared by the GM.
These players do not, at any point, exercise agency. They exist in the GM's world. The GM just happens to include some of the things the players opine about as things which alter the contents of that world. It is, and will always be, the GM exercising influence and/or control over the fictional space.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
What does it even mean, in the Burning Wheel procedure of play, to "play the GM"?
What it means is that in any game that has a DM that has any sort of discretion whatsoever, it's possible to play that DM. The only way to prevent the possibility of playing the DM is not to have one.
 

pemerton

Legend
pemerton said:
Or to put it another way: instead of starting from a RPG design that assumed rock-solid adherence by the GM to the hidden information (ie Gygaxian dungeon crawling) and then illusionistically departing from that to generate the sort of experience you describe, I prefer to go back to the foundations and adopt a different approach altogether to establishing the content of the shared fiction and working out what happens next.
But what is an example of this? You say that players can never alter game reality independent of the GM....but that is the ONLY way a GM and Player GM can "work together". Otherwise it is always "GM makes and controls everything always", and player can make a vague suggestion once in a while. And...maybe the GM will accept and use what the player says.
Your "otherwise" is not true. I've given examples, including extended accounts of actual play; and have referred to various rulebooks.

The most basic point, to reiterate, is this: the GM frames scenes, and narrates consequences, having regard to the goals and aspirations that the players have established for their PCs.
 

pemerton

Legend
What it means is that in any game that has a DM that has any sort of discretion whatsoever, it's possible to play that DM. The only way to prevent the possibility of playing the DM is not to have one.
I don't understand what this would look like in Burning Wheel. Can you explain?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I don't understand what this would look like in Burning Wheel. Can you explain?
Look at faith. The DM has discretion to award faith based on play. If the player knows what the DM likes, he can game the DM to get faith awarded. All instances of DM discretion can be gamed. Look at the game system. If the DM can choose A or B, it can be gamed. Only if he is forced to do a specific action by a rule is the DM free from being gamed.
 

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