D&D (2024) Limiting Short Rests to 2x/day

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah, 4e wouldn't be a good fit for that playstyle, it really doesn't want you to do that.

It wants the GM to handcraft every combat map, with interesting features and stuff, but doesn't have a system in place to help you do that (like a deck of cards with elements like 'big drop' or 'furniture' that you'd place on a grid as you randomly drew them). Something that encourages the players to vary what they're doing.

We played a lot of 4e (its entire span) and had a lot of fun. But as I said, it always felt off for us. And I really like that game. Essentials started to go in the right direction for us. Faster combat. More natural language (go into a stance and just attack felt way more convenient). And last but not least: different recharge rates for martials and the rest, which for us spiced things up.

And still, we just never made real progress in the camapaigns... which was due to the fact that we could not find enough time to play, so the switch to 5e which is designed to be played in shorter time frames was natural for us.

4e was in no way a bad game. Just not the right fit for us.

 

[NaturalZero]

What LR classes get was never in contention, they are noteworthy in that situation because a 5mwd expectation is a thing with near universal acceptance as a player problem caused by being overly quick to burn slots before demanding a rest... In other words when that warlock/SR class player does the same thing by burning their SR pool & demanding a SR with such force that they blame their fellow players simply not wanting to wait as the reason they were denied a SR rather than the consequence they are heeding. That warlock/SR class player is unquestionably expecting an unreasonable level of resource burn & should learn to pace themselves just like those LR casters.

You're just repeating the same false equivalency. Expecting the guy with 12 spell slots to go through the whole day without rest is not equivalent to expecting the guy with 2 spells slots to go through the whole day without a rest. What you're claiming sounds like a billionaire telling millennials that they aren't rich because they spend too much money on avocado toast. The math doesn't add up at all.

I've pointed out repeatedly that the warlock & other SR classes also get abilities in the form of powerful at-will abilities intended to bridge the gap and take them through the whole day, the post you quoted even notes their existence. Unlike those LR casters though the warlock/other SR class player can do so by relying on their powerful at-will abilities like agonizing repelling blast bladelock stuff arcanum slots & other invocations in addition to cantrips* the LR class players should more heavily lean on.

That's great but we're also talking about a hypothetical new edition. If the at-wills are too strong when combat features refresh every 5 minutes, tune them down or move their extra power to the short rest features. I don't think we, or at least I, am talking about pasting 5 minute rests onto 5e without an overhaul.

 

[NaturalZero]

Once again. We had a whole edition where combats were exiting meaningless, because you recovered most of your resources afterwards.
Nearly no resource management.

If this were really what made combats meaningless, then a party of swashbuckler rogues or champion fighters would always have meaningless combats.

Ironically, fighters, rogues ,and other classes also had more resources to lose over a day in 4e when you include dailies and the healing mechanic that demanded the sacrifice of not only leader spells but healing surges. For many PCs, there were more daily resources that had to be replenished than in 5e.

Combats also took way too long for people who can't afford playing 8 hours on the weekend regularly to make any meaningful campaign progress.

Meanwhile, I play 5e with students in a 45min slot and we are making progress everytime.

So while 4e had its merits, I don't want 5e to turn into 4e regarding resource management.

I 100% percent agree that combats were too long in 4e and don't want go back to that. I also do not want to go back to uniform AEDU classes either. 5 minute short rests though, seem to be something they got just right. Give players a handful of things that can choose to do whenever a fight breaks out instead of spamming at-wills. I miss tables where there was never an argument about a 5 minute break.

That said, the balancing for 8 encounters per day is also dodgy. So some rebalancing seems good.

I'd even go for maybe balance short rest classes for 1 to 1.5 short rest per day. And expect only 3 to 4 encounters.
So on a busy day, short rest classes are slightly stronger. On a one or two combat day, long rest classes are stronger. And on an 8 encounter day, the rogue will outshine everyone.

I've been playing consistently since the summer 3.5 came out and I've never seen an adventuring day with 8 encounters, so I feel like the devs are out of touch. I posted a survey here about the average number of encounters a group has during a single day awhile back and got a lot of responses. I think the average number of encounters per day ended up being no more than 2.

 

[James Gasik]

Let's not forget that hit points are the universal and ultimate resource.

 

[mamba]

5 minute short rests though, seem to be something they got just right.

you mean they are something you like…

Give players a handful of things that can choose to do whenever a fight breaks out instead of spamming at-wills. I miss tables where there was never an argument about a 5 minute break.

I miss tables where SR do not exist

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I love encounter-based design and powers, but I would rather have all classes be based on long rest, than have WotC's passive-aggressive 1-hour short rests.

 

[tetrasodium]

You're just repeating the same false equivalency. Expecting the guy with 12 spell slots to go through the whole day without rest is not equivalent to expecting the guy with 2 spells slots to go through the whole day without a rest. What you're claiming sounds like a billionaire telling millennials that they aren't rich because they spend too much money on avocado toast. The math doesn't add up at all.


That's great but we're also talking about a hypothetical new edition. If the at-wills are too strong when combat features refresh every 5 minutes, tune them down or move their extra power to the short rest features. I don't think we, or at least I, am talking about pasting 5 minute rests onto 5e without an overhaul.

Did you not notice that warlock has a bunch of powerful at will abilities to bridge that resource gap or that they have those abilities at all? Are you saying that wotc was in error by providing unlimited use of things like the bladelock thing agonizing repelling blast all of the cast x spell an unlimited number of times and so on on top of a SR power pool growing in both size and power? Warlock and other SR classes can't have it both ways and demand at will SRs as you've been doing.

 

[NaturalZero]

Did you not notice that warlock has a bunch of powerful at will abilities to bridge that resource gap or that they have those abilities at all? Are you saying that wotc was in error by providing unlimited use of things like the bladelock thing agonizing repelling blast all of the cast x spell an unlimited number of times and so on on top of a SR power pool growing in both size and power?

One of the biggest complaints about the warlock is that they just have to spam the same at-will all day. The fact that they're reduced to that is exactly what many are having an issue with. You're saying it's fine for the LR classes to have variety and spell slots all day because the warlock can just play the game in auto-mode instead of rest. It's coping with a problem, not solving one.

In my initial post I didn't even mention warlock, you brought them up and now we seem be stuck on them but they're not even close to the only issue. Every class suffers if you don't let them use hit dice because the rest of the party won't rest. The monk wasting ki on things that don't work but not being able to get them back is a common complaint. People think the Champion is the worst because it only gets a good auto-attack. You're taking one of the big complaints about class design in 5e and claiming that a lack of options is a feature. The 1 hour short rest has been needlessly causing issues throughout the system.

Warlock and other SR classes can't have it both ways and demand at will SRs as you've been doing.

I literally just said in the post that you quoted that if you have to tune down the power of at-wills or move their extra power to short rest features to balance things, they can do that because it's a new edition. You chose ignore what I wrote in order to make up an argument that was the opposite of what I said and attribute it to me.

you mean they are something you like…

It's not even about what I like. The 1 hour short rest introduced the entire narrative of party members arguing over short rests that didn't exist before. Whether or not I like that, it's a common phenomenon on the boards and IRL.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If this were really what made combats meaningless, then a party of swashbuckler rogues or champion fighters would always have meaningless combats.

Probably you are right. But that never happened in 5e so far.

Ironically, fighters, rogues ,and other classes also had more resources to lose over a day in 4e when you include dailies and the healing mechanic that demanded the sacrifice of not only leader spells but healing surges. For many PCs, there were more daily resources that had to be replenished than in 5e.

Yes. Probably.

I 100% percent agree that combats were too long in 4e and don't want go back to that. I also do not want to go back to uniform AEDU classes either. 5 minute short rests though, seem to be something they got just right. Give players a handful of things that can choose to do whenever a fight breaks out instead of spamming at-wills. I miss tables where there was never an argument about a 5 minute break.

I disagree here. 5 min was too short in my opinion. I would be ok with 30min though.

I've been playing consistently since the summer 3.5 came out and I've never seen an adventuring day with 8 encounters, so I feel like the devs are out of touch. I posted a survey here about the average number of encounters a group has during a single day awhile back and got a lot of responses. I think the average number of encounters per day ended up being no more than 2.

You probably mean 5e. Yes. That is way off.
If you actually did that, you would be level 20 in a month or so... So I'd really like some adjustment there.

 

[NaturalZero]

You probably mean 5e. Yes. That is way off.
If you actually did that, you would be level 20 in a month or so... So I'd really like some adjustment there.

I actually did mean 3.5. I've played a ton of 3.5, 4e, and 5e and I've never seen a day with 8 encounters in any system.