D&D (2024) Limiting Short Rests to 2x/day

[Scott Christian]

Rests are so DM reliant, that it is absolutely nonsensical to argue about them. There is no better or worse way. They are solely a storytelling tool for the DM - and not an actual mechanical rule for the players to be concerned about.

 

[NaturalZero]

No not at all. I've pointed out the difference between implying the warlock/SR class player has been wronged by the LR class players with "the other/long rest classes don't want to wait" vrs accepting that the warlock/SR class player is not entitled a SR & is simply not able to take a SR because doing so would cause the group and/or other players to suffer some consequence. In the case of accepting that the consequence should be avoided.

If a LR class player like wizard sorcerer or cleric were to behave in the same way & burn all of their top end spell slots as fast as possible then quickly demand a LR while simply complaining that the only problem is "the rest of the group doesn't want to wait" that player would rightfully be told to be more judicious in their slot use & to do things like use more cantrips while being reminded of how the 5mwd is simply not fun or reasonable to expect. Unlike that hypothetical LR class player the warlock & other SR classes get powerful at will abilities intended to support them when they too need to be more judicious in their slot use or simply can't expect to eat the consequence of taking a SR.

Just like the wizard/sorcerer/cleric who is unreasonable expecting to nova all of their spell slots as quickly as possible before taking a rest is being unreasonable in how they are playing, the warlock & other SR class players doing the same are being just as unreasonable. Given those powerful at-will abilities & the reason they are provided to warlock & other SR classes, when the warlock/SR class player refuses to even acknowledge that it's the consequence rather than being wronged by the whims of other players preventing that short rest they are very clearly being abusive to both their fellow GM and more specifically their fellow players by by viewing them as the enemy.

Even if the long rest class goes a whole day without a long rest, they get an entire suite of powers that will take them through the average number of encounters that a real table faces. If a short rest class goes through a whole day without a short rest, they get super screwed. You're making a false equivalency that completely ignores how games really run - a whole day of things that use resources, including full casters that can cover a whole day without rest. The SR guys have a tiny pool and you're asking to go through multiple fights while the LR have a much larger pool an are going through the same number of fights. The most obvious solution to this wild imbalance is to just make the short rests 5 minutes so that the daily guys can have there big pool of resources all day and the short rest guys can have their little pool whenever there's a fight. Adjust the power of short rest features to make it not OP. We've seen 5 minutes work well for a whole edition.

Often times when there's a problem there will be 2 kinds of attitudes. One attitude is to recognize that there's a problem and desire a solution so that the problem won't affect anyone. The second attitude is to see the problem, find a coping mechanism, and then conclude that the problem isn't a problem because the coping mechanism is comfortable enough. You keep recognizing that there's inter-party conflict because of short rests but concluding that the problem should coped with with instead of solved through the application of a tool we've already seen work.

You use words like "abusive" and "enemy". These issues and feelings over short rests never existed when we had 5 minute short rests. This is a new phenomenon that was a direct result of 1 hour short rests. 1 hour short rests created a problem where none existed, not the players.

Five minute short rests are not reasonable because short rest classes accumulate too much power both in their SR recovery abilities as well as their at-will abilities. Granting them five minute SRs would be an absolute endorsement of the 5mwd and make the very reason they are given powerful at-will abilities a farce.

We're talking about a hypothetical new edition. It's completely impossible to declare that short rest classes have too much power when we haven't even decided what power they have at all. If they decided that the warlock gets a 1st level slot on a SR up to level 20, would you come here to say it was too much power?

Once again, we had a whole edition with 5 minute short rests! Instead of being overpowered, one of the huge complaints about that edition was the combats took too long... because the powers weren't actually that powerful compared to monsters. We have years of evidence that proves that 5 minute short rests don't make short rest features too powerful if the system is designed around that assumption.

 

[tetrasodium]

Even if the long rest class goes a whole day without a long rest, they get an entire suite of powers that will take them through the average number of encounters that a real table faces. If a short rest class goes through a whole day without a short rest, they get super screwed. You're making a false equivalency that completely ignores how games really run - a whole day of things that use resources, including full casters that can cover a whole day without rest. The SR guys have a tiny pool and you're asking to go through multiple fights while the LR have a much larger pool an are going through the same number of fights. The most obvious solution to this wild imbalance is to just make the short rests 5 minutes so that the daily guys can have there big pool of resources all day and the short rest guys can have their little pool whenever there's a fight. Adjust the power of short rest features to make it not OP. We've seen 5 minutes work well for a whole edition.

Often times when there's a problem there will be 2 kinds of attitudes. One attitude is to recognize that there's a problem and desire a solution so that the problem won't affect anyone. The second attitude is to see the problem, find a coping mechanism, and then conclude that the problem isn't a problem because the coping mechanism is comfortable enough. You keep recognizing that there's inter-party conflict because of short rests but concluding that the problem should coped with with instead of solved through the application of a tool we've already seen work.

You use words like "abusive" and "enemy". These issues and feelings over short rests never existed when we had 5 minute short rests. This is a new phenomenon that was a direct result of 1 hour short rests. 1 hour short rests created a problem where none existed, not the players.


We're talking about a hypothetical new edition. It's completely impossible to declare that short rest classes have too much power when we haven't even decided what power they have at all. If they decided that the warlock gets a 1st level slot on a SR up to level 20, would you come here to say it was too much power?

Once again, we had a whole edition with 5 minute short rests! Instead of being overpowered, one of the huge complaints about that edition was the combats took too long... because the powers weren't actually that powerful compared to monsters. We have years of evidence that proves that 5 minute short rests don't make short rest features too powerful if the system is designed around that assumption.

What LR classes get was never in contention, they are noteworthy in that situation because a 5mwd expectation is a thing with near universal acceptance as a player problem caused by being overly quick to burn slots before demanding a rest... In other words when that warlock/SR class player does the same thing by burning their SR pool & demanding a SR with such force that they blame their fellow players simply not wanting to wait as the reason they were denied a SR rather than the consequence they are heeding. That warlock/SR class player is unquestionably expecting an unreasonable level of resource burn & should learn to pace themselves just like those LR casters.

I've pointed out repeatedly that the warlock & other SR classes also get abilities in the form of powerful at-will abilities intended to bridge the gap and take them through the whole day, the post you quoted even notes their existence. Unlike those LR casters though the warlock/other SR class player can do so by relying on their powerful at-will abilities like agonizing repelling blast bladelock stuff arcanum slots & other invocations in addition to cantrips* the LR class players should more heavily lean on.



*often quite literally the same cantrip options.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I'm having a hard time trying to wrap my head around the narrative of limiting Short Rests to twice per day in the TTRPG. Baldur's Gate 3 limits Short Rests to twice per day, and I've seen multiple people make that same suggestion.

I feel like it works in BG3 because I can suspend disbelief due to the video game format, but for some reason I'm having a problem with that limit in the narrative TTRPG game. But I've also been thinking that the D&D Team has been collaborating heavily with Larian for BG3 rules and they are behind a LOT of the rules changes that we're seeing in BG3, and have been wondering how much of that is writing on the wall or is otherwise predictive.

Should a Short Rest still be 1 hour to cover time spent on food, water, and recuperation (spending HD for HP)? Is it weird to get all the benefits of a Short Rest (like spending lots of HD) in only 5-15 minutes? Also, if you don't need to spend HD during a short rest, should there be other ways to spend them?

What is more important for Pact Magic-loving Warlock Fans? Shorter rests, or more of them? Or both, and the slots and power level have to be reconsidered for balance?

What do you guys think?

With an 8 hour adventuring days, the Adventuring Union Guild dictates that all Heroes are allowed two 15 minute short rests for breaks and one 30 minute short rest for lunch.

There are also rules that, if they adventure past 8 hours, the amount of treasure each monster carries should increase by 1.5, or by 2, if it's past 12 hours. These extra hours are subject to a Con check and failure to pass this test requires a hero to take a Long Rest before they resume adventuring. Safety first.

 

[mamba]

Even if the long rest class goes a whole day without a long rest, they get an entire suite of powers that will take them through the average number of encounters that a real table faces. If a short rest class goes through a whole day without a short rest, they get super screwed.

agreed, the solution is to give the SR class enough powers to make it to the LR and not recover any during a SR, just like the others

These issues and feelings over short rests never existed when we had 5 minute short rests. This is a new phenomenon that was a direct result of 1 hour short rests. 1 hour short rests created a problem where none existed, not the players.

no, the 5min SR was the problem the 1h SR tried to fix, they just did not go far enough

 

[Vaalingrade]

You can see some of them mentionedonce more above and in the indented ispoilered bits of the examples in that post you partially quoted. Treating the other players as enemies who are preventing the warlock from taking a SR simply because they don't want to wait instead of acknowledging that there is a consequence preventing the SR is an incredibly toxic way of approaching a collaborative game like d&d.

Okay, so I was right and you're just accusing me of making an argument I have not, do not and will not.

The enemy is the rule that demands you waste an hour to take a drink of water, button your cufflinks, and generally get yourself together.

I'm not sure how many times I'm going to have to reiterate this, but I can do this all day.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Once again, we had a whole edition with 5 minute short rests! Instead of being overpowered, one of the huge complaints about that edition was the combats took too long... because the powers weren't actually that powerful compared to monsters. We have years of evidence that proves that 5 minute short rests don't make short rest features too powerful if the system is designed around that assumption.

Once again. We had a whole edition where combats were exiting meaningless, because you recovered most of your resources afterwards.
Nearly no resource management.

Combats also took way too long for people who can't afford playing 8 hours on the weekend regularly to make any meaningful campaign progress.

Meanwhile, I play 5e with students in a 45min slot and we are making progress everytime.

So while 4e had its merits, I don't want 5e to turn into 4e regarding resource management.
That said, the balancing for 8 encounters per day is also dodgy. So some rebalancing seems good.

I'd even go for maybe balance short rest classes for 1 to 1.5 short rest per day. And expect only 3 to 4 encounters.
So on a busy day, short rest classes are slightly stronger. On a one or two combat day, long rest classes are stronger. And on an 8 encounter day, the rogue will outshine everyone.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

We had a whole edition where combats were exiting meaningless, because you recovered most of your resources afterwards.

You know, combats can have something at stake. Surely you're fighting over something.

If their whole purpose is just to drain resources, why even include them.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You know, combats can have something at stake. Surely you're fighting over something.

Yes of couse.

If their whole purpose is just to drain resources, why even include them.

Tension, uncertainity, fun.

Different playstyle I guess. More old school. With random encounters and so.
We actually like that.
Also combats that might be too tough or just a cakewalk.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Different playstyle I guess. More old school. With random encounters and so.

Yeah, 4e wouldn't be a good fit for that playstyle, it really doesn't want you to do that.

It wants the GM to handcraft every combat map, with interesting features and stuff, but doesn't have a system in place to help you do that (like a deck of cards with elements like 'big drop' or 'furniture' that you'd place on a grid as you randomly drew them). Something that encourages the players to vary what they're doing.