D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[tetrasodium]

the Wizard had 33 unique spells in the PH... almost double the Cleric's, 17, after that it was single digits down to the Sorcerer at 0 ...IIRC, it's been a while, and I may not have checked half-casters.... I think EK & AT are also 0 for instance...

Don't forget to add on how despite having access to the vast majority of the wizard spell list quite a bit of what remains is also granted by sorcerer/warlock/bard subclasses. The few actually exclusive gems like arcane lock & wall of sand were of course too far into SSS tier on the wizard list for inclusion with the rest. That wouldn't be a problem if "That truly has been a key piece of the wizard's identity for a long time them having this massive list that noone else has" were not the wizard's identity with those other classes getting so many more class features of notable power to bridge the gap

 

[Neonchameleon]

I look forward to seeing your homebrew sorcerer subclass wizard then.

If that's a challenge.

Level 1 (3 in D&Done)

Learned Caster
You are a scholar, skilled in the ways of magic and may cast using Int rather than Cha

Spellbook
You have a spellbook that you may use as your spellcasting focus. It contains all the spells you have studied and mastered including all sorcerer cantrips and the Detect Magic and Comprehend Languages spells. Any spell in this book may be cast by you as a ritual, and at the end of any long rest you may choose to exchange any spell you know for one in your spellbook.

Wizardly spells
Starting at 1st level, you may add one spell from the wizard spell list to your spellbook. In addition you may know one additional spell from your spellbook for every full two sorcerer levels you have.

Copying Spell/Replacing Book/The Book's Appearance - as wizard.

Level 6

Driven Scholar
Your arcane studies grant you Expertise on Arcana checks.

In addition, due to extensive use and study notes when casting Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, or Identify as a ritual it only takes a single minute rather than the normal ten

Level 14

Spell Mastery 1: At level 14 pick a first level spell you know with a casting time of one action. You may cast it as a first level spell without spending a spell slot. You may change this spell when you change spells you know with the spellbook feature


Level 18

Spell Mastery 2: At level 18 pick a second level spell you know with a casting time of one action. You may cast it as a second level spell without spending a spell slot. You may change this spell when you change spells you know with the spellbook feature

 

[CreamCloud0]

I look forward to seeing your homebrew sorcerer subclass wizard then.

i'm literally just scribbling this out basically off the top of my head but
Sorcerer subclass: Wizard
1st:
spellbook: you gain a spellbook that helps you memorise and comprehend additional magics, it can be used as an arcane focus, you know additional spells equal to your INT mod and you may also swap out INT mod number of spells after a short or long rest, you can replace PB+INT number of your spells known for others on any base spell list of an arcane caster, if your spellbook is lost or destroyed you loose access to these features until you perform a 1-hour ritual to replace it.
ritual caster: you can cast any spell you know that has the ritual tag without a spell slot by casting it as a 10 minute ritual, also by expending [spell scribing value] you can copy any ritual spell you know into your spellbook so that you may perform it as a ritual even if you don't currently know it, if you have to replace your spellbook you need to re-scribe any rituals in it to use them while not known.
6th:
expanded knowledge: you become proficient in the arcana skill, if you are already proficient gain expertise in it instead, you also gain proficiency in two other INT skills, you have advantage when rolling checks for these three skills.
14th:
empowered upcasting: when casting a spell you can increase the level of the spell slot being used to cast the spell by expending 2 sorcery points per slot level. (so say, you can cast a 7th level spell with a 5th level slot and 4 sorcery points), you can't upcast a spell above your max spell level known.
18th:
greater memorisation: you can replace all spells known over the course of a long rest.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It can be fixed.

It requires having a catrip for each element and a wall for each element.

The problem is of course because the designers either didn't get the Element monk or didn't care to include the material, the main spells for the elements monk came AFTER the PHB.

Do you want a Four Elements Monk, or an Elemental Bender?

Because IMO you cannot do both in the same subclass.

Some of the playtest 4elements monk are the right idea, like having an elemental utility cantrip, extending reach of elemental damage attacks, letting you replace normal damage with an elemental damage type, etc.

But if anything in 5e needs broadly defined “you can do this sort of thing, within this framework, increasing these factors cost points in XYZ formula” instead of singular distinct rules widgets, it’s a subclass dedicated to moving raw elements around.

 

[Minigiant]

Do you want a Four Elements Monk, or an Elemental Bender?

Because IMO you cannot do both in the same subclass.

Some of the playtest 4elements monk are the right idea, like having an elemental utility cantrip, extending reach of elemental damage attacks, letting you replace normal damage with an elemental damage type, etc.

But if anything in 5e needs broadly defined “you can do this sort of thing, within this framework, increasing these factors cost points in XYZ formula” instead of singular distinct rules widgets, it’s a subclass dedicated to moving raw elements around.

I want a non-slot elementalist.

I'm okay with a monk subclass that can attack at range with elements, AOE with elements, move with elements, and maybe create elemental constructs (walls, cover, armor, weapons)

 

[Scott Christian]

Because isn't not +2 damage.

It is 20-30% more damage.

And...
I am seventh level and did 54 points of damage in a single round. Granted, it was great rolling, but do I need to do more? Do I have to do more than the paladin? Do I always have to beat the ranger? The warlock? The bard? I would love, just love, for one time, for someone to post a video of their game, of three to four sessions, just to see how much that +1 or +2 is needed. I am willing to bet it's rarer than people believe.

No, the argument is "Choosing a race who's ASI doesn't match my class' prime score loses me a lot of damage. This means all characters made for flavor are significantly weaker."

You are not losing "a lot" of damage. In fact, the weapon you choose has the same or greater impact on your damage than that +1.

ASI complaints ignored: all the cool racial feats, and the ability to get to dive deeper into a culture you want to explore as a player. Also, you get additional points in a skill that rounds out your character better. And, you get to choose skills that help show the culture you're trying to roleplay.

But no. The "I have to have this, and it's not fair" crowd insisted.

Just once... just once... I would like to see a complaint that didn't involve someone wanting something that made their character stronger. But that never happens. Almost every change is an increase in power, which is why people that complain are often called powergamers or min/maxers.

Imagine the outcry if this happened: All cantrips should only do 1d4 damage, this way martial classes always do more damage - you know, since that's what they specialize in. The spellcasters have other things like fly and invisibility that makes them equal in the long run.

Have you ever seen that? Probably not. The reason is the people that complain are boxed in by needing that extra +1, or needing to be able to do the best damage, have the best AC, technically, to be great at all pillars. For them, being ok at a pillar is not enough. For them, for reasons I can't understand, it ruins their immersion.

 

[Minigiant]

And...
I am seventh level and did 54 points of damage in a single round. Granted, it was great rolling, but do I need to do more? Do I have to do more than the paladin? Do I always have to beat the ranger? The warlock? The bard? I would love, just love, for one time, for someone to post a video of their game, of three to four sessions, just to see how much that +1 or +2 is needed. I am willing to bet it's rarer than people believe.

You're missing the math.

It's not the +2 to damage rolls.
It's the +2 to attack rolls.
If I went with a 13 Str, roll a 15, and miss.. I know it. I know I missed because I didn't have 16 STR. I know I didn't deal damage.

And you know what else I know. That the 16 Cha I took that dropped by STR to 13 is doing jack squat. It's not dealing damage. It's not preventing damage.

But a wizard's INT? Helps in combat. Helps in social. Helps in exploration.
"Oh your DM can let you perform actions that use Cha in combat."
On this very forum, I've had posters in stat they don't want additional combat options that use mental scores. People saying Intelligence and Charisma shouldn't affect combat unless you use magic.

1e and 2e reduced the importance of scores for a reason. It you are going to use 3e ability scores, you need to have either:

1) a core Feint action with INT, a Goad action with CHA, a Distract action with CHA, a Parry action with INT
OR
2) a warrior class that uses INT, WIS, and CHA in comba without using magic.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I want a non-slot elementalist.

I'm okay with a monk subclass that can attack at range with elements, AOE with elements, move with elements, and maybe create elemental constructs (walls, cover, armor, weapons)

I'm not but only because of the practicalities associated. I don't think the monk works brilliantly, and I don't think that either dex-based or a base melee class are a good fit.

Would an elementalist warlock work for you? With tweaked Eldritch Bolts? (Genie pact is almost this - and there's my homebrew Arsonist)

 

[Micah Sweet]

If that's a challenge.

Level 1 (3 in D&Done)

Learned Caster
You are a scholar, skilled in the ways of magic and may cast using Int rather than Cha

Spellbook
You have a spellbook that you may use as your spellcasting focus. It contains all the spells you have studied and mastered including all sorcerer cantrips and the Detect Magic and Comprehend Languages spells. Any spell in this book may be cast by you as a ritual, and at the end of any long rest you may choose to exchange any spell you know for one in your spellbook.

Wizardly spells
Starting at 1st level, you may add one spell from the wizard spell list to your spellbook. In addition you may know one additional spell from your spellbook for every full two sorcerer levels you have.

Copying Spell/Replacing Book/The Book's Appearance - as wizard.

Level 6

Driven Scholar
Your arcane studies grant you Expertise on Arcana checks.

In addition, due to extensive use and study notes when casting Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, or Identify as a ritual it only takes a single minute rather than the normal ten

Level 14

Spell Mastery 1: At level 14 pick a first level spell you know with a casting time of one action. You may cast it as a first level spell without spending a spell slot. You may change this spell when you change spells you know with the spellbook feature


Level 18

Spell Mastery 2: At level 18 pick a second level spell you know with a casting time of one action. You may cast it as a second level spell without spending a spell slot. You may change this spell when you change spells you know with the spellbook feature

Brilliant answer! I'd play that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Just once... just once... I would like to see a complaint that didn't involve someone wanting something that made their character stronger. But that never happens. Almost every change is an increase in power, which is why people that complain are often called powergamers or min/maxers.

And why power creep is a thing. WotC is selling us fantasies, the fantasy of wanting to be whimpier is unusual...
...like, Picture Tim Allen as Gandalf going "Moar Power!"

But an inflationary power spiral doesn't improve the game, it can even detract from it by making it seem narcissistic or silly.

It'd probably be better to fix the game by nerfing casters into the ground until they reached the planet's molten core. But it would be harder. It would provoke nerdrage. It could damage the IP. Safer to let 'em have one more 9th level spell at 20th, find one more restriction to remove from casting....