• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

So the thing to take away from this is that if you combine numerous features and feats that give certain characters poorly-balanced advantages that Monks can't benefit from, only then does the Barbarian outdamage the Monk. While Raging. Take away a single factor benefitting the Barbarian, and it swings the Monk's way.
You asked for how it happened, and I gave you the math.

And if you want to take away Rage, then you can also remove Flurry of Blows, since they're both a basic class resource. You already granted FoB to the monk, so I gave Rage to the barbarian. If you want to remove Rage (12 damage per round in the example), then you can also remove FoB (11.5 damage per round in the example), and end up in almost exactly the same place.

As for the feats benefiting barbarian, that's an issue with weapons, not classes. A barbarian trying to dual wield axes isn't getting much from the feat system either. Since you wished for the example monk to use unarmed strikes, the limits on unarmed strikes also applied.

It cements the fact that the problem isn't Monk Bad, but that common-sense adjustments like better balancing of Weapon Masteries or Polearm Master not giving an infinite-use extra attack will never happen because the most vocal respondents to the surveys will never allow the creators to take away their Optimization.
Complaining about survey respondents is not a useful avenue of discussion.

I agree with the assertion that the monk isn't "bad", though the class is often difficult to use in line with many desired character concepts, similar to the PHB sorcerer and ranger. However your alternate problems are not the counterparts of monk's problems. They are just other things that people might have issues with, and might possibly relate to some of how monk works.

I would suggest that the questions to ask are:
  • What are the things that frustrate people playing monk?
  • What roadblocks are there in the way of realizing your intended image of your monk?
  • Are the perceptions that people have of monks, that lead to disliking the class, real or imagined?
  • If they are real, how do we address them?
  • If they are imagined, what is causing that disconnect? How can we reduce that friction?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Clint_L

Legend
All this "monk bad" takes do just some raw math and theoretical encounter in an empty dungeon room. In real play the true strength of the monk is the flexibility he provides and if played right its quite the effective class. Often when people are disappointed with them they play the class in the role as damage dealers or tanks and of course they fail compared to the martial classes that were designed as damage dealers or tanks. But play the monk as a support/crowd control and suddenly they make sense.
I do play a monk, currently. And I mostly DM, and have for more than four decades. I have seen just about every party composition. The 5e monk is the least essential class in the game, and it isn't close. "Support/crowd control" is the role they typically get because they aren't needed for any of the essential roles, and it is also a role that doesn't come up in every battle. And it's a role that other classes can do as well or better. And I play a Mercy monk, which is the only monk subclass that is remotely competitive.

They do mediocre damage, have low survivability, and don't have a clearly defined or important niche. There's a reason that they are ranked at or near the bottom in pretty much every 5e tier ranking: the consensus is that they are weak. Now maybe all those folks are wrong and the small minority who disagree with the consensus, and with the math, are right. Odds are against it, but you never know. However, it wouldn't matter because this rules update is about fixing the obvious problems in 5e, and the current monk is clearly an obvious problem for the majority. So it is getting revamped.
 
Last edited:

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
So the thing to take away from this is that if you combine numerous features and feats that give certain characters poorly-balanced advantages that Monks can't benefit from, only then does the Barbarian outdamage the Monk. While Raging. Take away a single factor benefitting the Barbarian, and it swings the Monk's way.

It cements the fact that the problem isn't Monk Bad, but that common-sense adjustments like better balancing of Weapon Masteries or Polearm Master not giving an infinite-use extra attack will never happen because the most vocal respondents to the surveys will never allow the creators to take away their Optimization.
It's Rage and one of the most common feats for Barbarians. It's not numerous features and feats...it's just...normal Barbarian class features and a normal heavy weapon user feat.

So...what it "cements" is not at all the false statements you keep making about the monk, the game, and the other people in the discussion.

maybe find a way to discuss the game without insulting swaths of the community for absolutely no reason. It not only makes people a lot less likely to have any patience with or grace toward you when you're wrong or out of line, but it just adds needlessly to the unpleasantness of a discussion that has no reason to be that way, on a forum that generally isn't that way.

Your other comment upthread about playtest respondents is just needless invective that adds nothing to any conversation. People don't find the monk unsatisfying because they're powergamers, and the community literally has a history of rejecting stuff because they think it's too powerful (often when it isn't).
 

maybe find a way to discuss the game without insulting swaths of the community for absolutely no reason. It not only makes people a lot less likely to have any patience with or grace toward you when you're wrong or out of line, but it just adds needlessly to the unpleasantness of a discussion that has no reason to be that way, on a forum that generally isn't that way.

Your other comment upthread about playtest respondents is just needless invective that adds nothing to any conversation. People don't find the monk unsatisfying because they're powergamers, and the community literally has a history of rejecting stuff because they think it's too powerful (often when it isn't).
So here's the thing.

I've posited my own desires for the Monk elsewhere, ideas for new features that give them more flexibility in line with what the OneD&D playtests have given to other classes. And the responses I received were insults because my ideas weren't purely about "DPR".

I've received insults whenever I've commented on what those who complain about the Monk want it to be, whether of the two extremes it always falls into: they want the Monk to be overtuned in terms of DPR, want them to be able to use and combine numerous special actions per turn with little limitation, and want them to have an overabundance of resources even when other classes are limited in theirs—or they want to change the Monk in a way that blatantly weakens the Monk in either the short-term or long-term, but makes the Monk's features more exploitable for multiclassers.

I've received insults whenever I floated the idea that feats like Polearm Master should be rebalanced to only giving a limited number of uses of the bonus action per short rest, instead of being hugely anomalous to other feats which have limited uses to the special actions they grant.

There is absolutely a segment of the community that relishes in the toxic idea of "optimization", where they and the kind of players they believe the game should cater to attempt to milk every point of hypothetical DPR out of every class. They don't truly want game balance, because they actually want imbalanced choices so they can feel superior to those who don't take the more-powerful choices. It's why there's the type of player who insists that every and any martial having GWM/PAM is basically a given, that no player plays any differently from how they would play a class.

For the vast majority of players, the Monk falls in line with every other class, possessing a flexibility with its movement and support features that other martial classes don't possess. But for that small segment of the community, whom I will absolutely refer to as power-gamers because they are, they're rabidly vitriolic about the Monk because it doesn't have the same elite-tweak optimization options. I'm not even exaggerating: despite the Monk receiving largely all-around buffs in UA6, the singular fact that they couldn't spam Stunning Strike was treated by the Monk Bad crowd as some kind of personal slight, that they were being victimized by not being able to exploit one powerful ability.

But at the end of the day, it's that kind of gamer who is more likely to be responding to the playtest surveys. Many average players who play the game in a non-power-gamer way likely won't invest the time to assess and try out the playtests, while those who invest themselves heavily in "theorycrafting" and their pursuit of Being More Awesome Than Other Players At The Table are going to be much more critical of the playtests and anything that stands in the way of that goal. And as we've seen from several celebrated new features, what many playtest respondents seem to expect is for classes to get potent new features with no action economy and/or resource management cost, like Weapon Mastery and Cunning Strike. Which then falls perfectly in line with expectations like the title of this thread.
 
Last edited:

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
So, first, about the experiences you’ve had elsewhere. Elsewhere isn’t here. Here, you can just report that crap and it will usually be dealt with. I’ve been on both sides of that, because Im not always patient or nice about telling someone I think they’re out of line, or acting poorly. Obviously we should be able to disagree without anyone being insulted.

Further, I’m not surprised you get pushback when you describe people’s motives and recharacterise people’s arguments at them, and depending on where you’ve posted before coming here, most pushback may very well be insults. I don’t post my ideas on Reddit, for that reason.

But frankly, telling people that they only expect the monk to keep up in damage because they’re powergamers, and characterizing anything they want for the monk in the worst possible light especially as it concerns their motivations, is rude and insulting. Hell the way you reply to people talking about math analysis of the classes is insulting. The fact you’ve felt insulted by other people in other places doesn’t justify it here.
For the vast majority of players, the Monk falls in line with every other class, possessing a flexibility with its movement and support features that other martial classes don't possess.
Source? Because no, the surveys aren’t mostly being filled out by powergamers, and the stuff that is most popular according to wotc’s data doesn’t line up with CharOp analysis of what is most powerful or exploitable.
But for that small segment of the community, whom I will absolutely refer to as power-gamers because they are, they're rabidly vitriolic about the Monk because it doesn't have the same elite-tweak optimization options. I'm not even exaggerating: despite the Monk receiving largely all-around buffs in UA6, the singular fact that they couldn't spam Stunning Strike was treated by the Monk Bad crowd as some kind of personal slight, that they were being victimized by not being able to exploit one powerful ability.
Okay. The idea some people act like fools and show their ass online at the drop of a hat doesn’t really surprise me, but having watched Crawford talk about the Monk in playtest I don’t get the impression at all that optimizers are the ones dominating feedback.
But at the end of the day, it's that kind of gamer who is more likely to be responding to the playtest surveys. Many average players who play the game in a non-power-gamer way likely won't invest the time to assess and try out the playtests, while those who invest themselves heavily in "theorycrafting" and their pursuit of Being More Awesome Than Other Players At The Table are going to be much more critical of the playtests and anything that stands in the way of that goal.
This is what I’m talking about. You’re actively insulting a large chunk of the community.
And as we've seen from several celebrated new features, what many playtest respondents seem to expect is for classes to get potent new features with no action economy and/or resource management cost, like Weapon Mastery and Cunning Strike. Which then falls perfectly in line with expectations like the title of this thread
Those two features aren’t crazy powerful. They’re there to give characters that tend to lack mechanical options on a per turn basis some “martial cantrips”, and they mostly do that. They certainly aren’t being added “because powergamers”. They’re being added because they’re fun, because most respondents don’t know or really care how the math plays out anyway they just want fun buttons and levers, and the designers recognize that the pure martials don’t feel good to a large swath of players.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Calling disagreement insults and then coming out with "There is absolutely a segment of the community that relishes in the toxic idea of "optimization"" is a pretty bold strat, I'll admit.
 


I think that if they really want to emphasize the Monk being a Skirmisher that weaves in and out of melee combat, then the main thing for that Step of the Wind, should be free of discipline points. That's a pain point I see.

I guess it could be a choice for Monks at early levels, like one of the basic choices are free but the others cost points (much like how they're giving Clerics a choice of armor training or skills).

But I'm curious what do they (WotC) think the Monk's focus should be?
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I think that if they really want to emphasize the Monk being a Skirmisher that weaves in and out of melee combat, then the main thing for that Step of the Wind, should be free of discipline points. That's a pain point I see.

I guess it could be a choice for Monks at early levels, like one of the basic choices are free but the others cost points (much like how they're giving Clerics a choice of armor training or skills).

But I'm curious what do they (WotC) think the Monk's focus should be?
That if is doing a lot of lifting there though & wotc not being clear (or even vaguely hinting) about that kinda thing causes a lot of the monk needs to excel in all things all the time at no cost or $SpecificRole is useless
 

mellored

Legend
I think that if they really want to emphasize the Monk being a Skirmisher that weaves in and out of melee combat, then the main thing for that Step of the Wind, should be free of discipline points. That's a pain point I see.

I guess it could be a choice for Monks at early levels,

Momentum Control:
You feat and fist move in tandem, allowing you to convert some of the momentum of attacks into movement.

Choose one of the following..
Miss Step: you move 5' after you miss with an attack.
Follow Though: you move 5' after you hit with an attack
Roll with it: you move 5' after you are hit.
Side Step: you move 5' after you are missed.
This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. You gain an additional choice at levels 9, 13, and 18.
1DP: increase the distance to your Unarmored Movement.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top