D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[Clint_L]

In other discussions about this, people have noted that this falls off a bit somewhat later as multi-attack becomes more common. Yeah, Deflect Attack will negate one attack, but the Monk can get in trouble if they start getting multiple attacks coming their way.

Sure. This is true of anyone, though. If she was facing a ton of attacks, she would swap to patient defence, so now she has 11 temp HP each round, plus deflect attack, plus all attacks are at disadvantage, and she is still getting her action. I think that stacks up very favourably against paladin or fighter tanks. Barbarians shine against multiple attacks because damage resistance is consistent, but we are finding that my monk has been easily able to handle every situation thrown at her. Being able to impose disadvantage at will is extremely powerful defensively.

And, as I previously mentioned, you just don't get caught in beatdown situations with the new monk. The new step of the wind is also very strong; it is very tough for an enemy to pin you down.

 

[DavyGreenwind]

Well, her AC would be lower, but then so would the barbarian, fighter, paladin, etc. if they also couldn't use magic.

So if we're taking magic items out of the equation, her AC would be 18, going to 19 next level. A paladin or fighter tank would be 21, using a shield, or 19 without. A barbarian would be at 14, probably going to 15 next level; 16 with shield.

At level 20, again assuming no magic, the fighter and paladin will still be at 21/19. The barbarian will get up to 18/20, presumably. The monk will be at AC 25. Naked.

Monks are not a particularly low AC class, since their unarmored defence synergies better with their primary/secondary stats than does a barbarian's. For example, the new monk capstone gives them +4 AC.

But that said, I don't think having bracers of protection and a ring of protection by level 20 is difficult.

Why so low? The Monk can take ASIs to get both DEX and WIS up to 20, and then have an AC of 20 without magic items, right?

 

[Stalker0]

One thing I haven't thought of that Treantmonk noted. There is nothing stopping a 11th+ monk from spending ki to get temp hp outside of combat. So its a nice way to have a little buffer against out of combat shenanigans and to ensure you are likely have some temp hp to start a fight with.

 

[Clint_L]

Why so low? The Monk can take ASIs to get both DEX and WIS up to 20, and then have an AC of 20 without magic items, right?

I don't follow. We use standard array; having a dex of 20 and wisdom of 16 at level 10 is the best you can do without magic. She's only had two ASIs thus far, at lvls 4 and 8.

 

[DavyGreenwind]

I don't follow. We use standard array; having a dex of 20 and wisdom of 16 at level 10 is the best you can do without magic. She's only had two ASIs thus far, at lvls 4 and 8.

Well, that's always been the Monk's problem: standard array and MAD don't go together very well. I let my players use a more flexible point buy system, or otherwise roll stats. Either way, I generally help them find a way to get at least a 20 and an 18 (or even another 20) by level 10, especially for Monks.

I know it's only my table, but if the problem presented is "MAD and standard array make Monk less viable" then the solution is to tweak one of those. I think having more flexible ability scores is a more reasonable baseline assumption than "give them magic items." Other martials get to AC 20 much faster than the Monk. I think unarmored defense was meant to keep pace, but fails in models which strictly adhere to the standard array.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't follow. We use standard array; having a dex of 20 and wisdom of 16 at level 10 is the best you can do without magic. She's only had two ASIs thus far, at lvls 4 and 8.

I don't think many people use Standard Array, and 20-18 is doable on the standard point buy with a mountain Dwarf.

Also AC doesn't tell the whole story when you can regularly dodge as a bonus action and by 8th level a Monk can do that.

 

[Clint_L]

Well, that's always been the Monk's problem: standard array and MAD don't go together very well. I let my players use a more flexible point buy system, or otherwise roll stats. Either way, I generally help them find a way to get at least a 20 and an 18 (or even another 20) by level 10, especially for Monks.

I know it's only my table, but if the problem presented is "MAD and standard array make Monk less viable" then the solution is to tweak one of those. I think having more flexible ability scores is a more reasonable baseline assumption than "give them magic items." Other martials get to AC 20 much faster than the Monk. I think unarmored defense was meant to keep pace, but fails in models which strictly adhere to the standard array.

I'm at AC 21 at level 10, which I consider very strong. Moreover, instead of boosting AC (until level 20), the 2024 revision gives the monk something much better with deflect attack! The point is survivability, after all, and believe you me, the new monk is not struggling in that department - I'm arguing that it's OP. If you stacked an AC boost on top, it would be outright broken.

 

[Clint_L]

I don't think many people use Standard Array, and 20-18 is doable on the standard point buy with a mountain Dwarf.

According to WotC around 20% of people use standard array. It's the third most popular method, after point buy (1) and various methods of rolling (2). We don't use those rules for species precisely because of things like mountain dwarf being demonstrably better for ASIs, but I also don't see how being a mountain dwarf would help get you to Dex 20, Wisdom 18.

Also AC doesn't tell the whole story when you can regularly dodge as a bonus action and by 8th level a Monk can do that.

Edit: misread. 2024 monk can dodge as a bonus action starting at level 2, though by level 10 it's better to do it as an action a lot of the time and do your attacks as a bonus action.

 

[MPA2000]

I can't say I'm unhappy to see the monk lose Weapon Mastery as it was already tangled - and what it gets is mostly good. And using Dex for trip and push is just a nice QOL improvement.

The big thing is the improved bonus actions. Now a level 2 monk can unarmed attack, dash, or disengage as a bonus action without spending a Discipline (formerly Qi) point or even needing to make a main action attack. Huge improvement. And if you spend a discipline point you either get a second extra attack, to disengage-and-dodge, or to dash-and-disengage. And a 1/day recharge of discipline points on initiative is nice.

Deflect Attacks now works on melee attacks - which is huge.

Stunning Strike does damage when the creature saves as a consolation prize - again nice.

I think the level 1-6 (assuming a good subclass) monk is now good. And the new bonus action rules even give an answer to what a monk can do that a scimitar and shortsword fighter can't; they can use the Defense action and make an attack (with their bonus action) on the same turn, giving them more survivability when they chose.

Level 10 now has a needed buff - when you spend a ki point for Flurry of Blows you get two extra unarmed attacks not just one. (Plus the free one). This is good. I'm slightly concerned about levels 7-9 being soggy and situational in the wake of monk damage being pegged back by getting less use from Extra Attack than people with bigger weapons (Monks being MAD having less chance to use the new good feats) - but this is a huge improvement over the way it was in 2014 when levels 7-13 were all soggy and monk subclasses included the old Four Elements.

Warrior of the Hand looks good.

The Monk was never a melee heavy class since it's birth, even then it was part of the Druid or Priest (Cleric) subclass that's why it's has a d8 hit dice and for some reason has never changed. The Ki should never have been implemented and I don't know why they thought it was a great idea. That being said I've seen arguments from both sides calling the Monk "squishy" and others saying it's broken.
I've looked at the PHB version and other than the the low unarmed damage, I didn't see anything wrong with with the class. Yeah they start of weak, but so does every class and eventually it becomes a walking force of destruction. The new Playtest took away things they shouldn't have such as the Tranquility, non-aging, poison immunity and ability to astral project. However, they improved Deflect attacks and added deflect energy attacks, when a DM says you deflected the attack but still take burning damage. Ha! Not anymore! To be honest at 13 the level, the PC is practically going to be able to walk into any situation virtually unscathed.

Back to the PHB. The Quivering palm is great but took too long to implement. The new version is just silly 10d12 and save vs half at 4 discipline points? Okay so if you are lucky to ever reach level 17, you will do an average of 65 pts of damage with that blow on a save. It also reads you do this with every unarmed blow? So you get four attacks with a 1 discipline Point. So you could hit the creature four times dealing an average of 260 points of damage in one round, at a cost of all 17 Discipline Points. Which you can get back with a short rest or on the next fight initiative roll thanks to Uncanny Metabolism.

I think the Way of the Shadow monk in the PHB is the better subclass. Playtest 6 got rid of the good spells (silence and Without a Trace), but is still useful against anyone without Blindsight, Truesight or Devilsight.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The Monk was never a melee heavy class since it's birth, even then it was part of the Druid or Priest (Cleric) subclass that's why it's has a d8 hit dice and for some reason has never changed.

The OG Monk (or at least the 1e AD&D Monk) was a quasi-rogue and used d4s as its hit dice, getting two of them at level 1. I don't think it's ever been explicitely part of the druid or priest category?