D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[Vikingkingq]

So, I think I agree that deflect attack is too powerful in its current form. Reactions typically go unused, so you wind up automatically choosing to spend it on deflect attack whenever you get hit. And it makes monks very, very tough in most melee situations. Like, tougher than fighters, barbarians, and paladins, which feels like a problem because new monk gets unmatched mobility and pretty strong offence, too.

I would down-tune it to reducing damage by a martial arts die plus dexterity bonus. Adding the monk's level to the damage reduction makes it scale really well, but at level 10 I can basically count on eliminating 20 points of damage every round. That's REALLY good for the cost of a reaction (so, almost for free). And when you can combine it with patient defence and the extreme mobility offered by step of the wind, the practical result is that my monk almost never feels threatened - hard to hit, virtually impossible to score a critical upon, able to shrug off the first 20 points of damage, all but immune to AoE attacks (evasion), and able to escape almost any situation in a pinch.

I never thought I'd write these words, but right now playing a monk feels overpowered.

In other discussions about this, people have noted that this falls off a bit somewhat later as multi-attack becomes more common. Yeah, Deflect Attack will negate one attack, but the Monk can get in trouble if they start getting multiple attacks coming their way.

 

[Kurotowa]

I was mocking up characters yesterday, and in the realm of group combos instead of solo optimizing it struck me that the Shadow Monk's new ability to see through their own Darkness spells would combine well with the classic Devil's Sight Warlock who's able to do the same. The Monk drops a Darkness, moves in, grapples and pounds, while the Warlock bombards from outside (or inside if Bladelock). Great team up attack.

Is there anyone else who can easily get in on that action? I know there's the Skulker feat, which gives 10ft Blindsight. And as of UA6 Rangers get it, but not till 18th Level. Any other options for getting Blindsight at a reasonably low level?

 

[mellored]

Is there anyone else who can easily get in on that action? I know there's the Skulker feat, which gives 10ft Blindsight. And as of UA6 Rangers get it, but not till 18th Level. Any other options for getting Blindsight at a reasonably low level?

Probably a moon druid (spider?)
Anyone with the Eldritch Adept feat.
Also, any AOE spell casting doesn't care

 

[Kurotowa]

Probably a moon druid (spider?)
Anyone with the Eldritch Adept feat.
Also, any AOE spell casting doesn't care

AoE is a little risky with the Monk inside. I mean, they do have Evasion and maybe they'll make the save. But AoE is generally inefficient on single targets, and you can't active abilities like Evocation Wizard's Sculpt Spell if you can't see the targets. Eldritch Adept for Devil's Sight would technically work, but it's limited in who can take it and a bit of a steep cost under D&D'24 since it doesn't give an ASI.

Moon Druid might have potential. Giant Spider does indeed give 10ft Blindsight. But... you'll forgive me if I've lost track of Moon Druid's current state after all the UA iterations. Under the UA8 Moon Druid rules, are they on a form treadmill where they want to upgrade to a CR2 shape as soon as it's available, or does Giant Spider remain a viable combat body in the longer term?

ETA: If I'm parsing it right, the UA8 Moon Druid absolutely needs to be moving on to higher CR forms as they become available. But at CR3 there's the Giant Scorpion, which gets Blightsight 60ft. So Moon Druid kind of works, depending on your level bracket. We'll see if the UA8 version makes it through mostly intact or if there are additional tweaks before the final release.

 

[mellored]

Moon Druid might have potential. Giant Spider does indeed give 10ft Blindsight. But... you'll forgive me if I've lost track of Moon Druid's current state after all the UA iterations. Under the UA8 Moon Druid rules, are they on a form treadmill where they want to upgrade to a CR2 shape as soon as it's available, or does Giant Spider remain a viable combat body in the longer term?

It's definitely more viable to stay a Giant spider.

Moon druids keep their own HP and have to select forms at the begin of the day, and don't get elemental forms.

Instead they get 13+ Wis AC, 3xlevel THP, bonus damage, can talk, and can cast a select spells including a ranged cantrip. All scaling outside the CR.

*notably the attack bonus is not scaling.

How long Giant Spider remains viable is hard to say. But definitely more so.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm not finding this. My monk has AC 21 at level 10, which is plenty strong, and that's just with unarmored defence, bracers of defence, and ring of protection. If she goes to level 20 and doesn't even get any new gear, she will have AC 28. Naked. And damage resistance to almost everything, and the ability to impose disadvantage on demand, evade virtually all AoE, and be virtually immune to critical hits. She will be a phenomenal tank.

Would your evaluation change if you didn't have those magic items? Because I think that's what's really important- until WotC comes out and says "give your Monk players Bracers of Defense", the design has to assume they don't have them.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I like the idea of using points to boost the reduction. Then have the counter attack be free. But I don't think +Dex isn't enough scaling for the base.

Deflect Attack

Martial Arts die + half your monk level. If reduced to 0 you can redirect...
Speed 1 DP to increase the damage reduction to two dice + your monk level

Level 10
Spend 2 DP to make it 3 dice + Dex + Wis + monk level.

Instead of half level, prof bonus could also work. I just hope the internal testers find a good formula.

But I really understand why they overpowered it. Anything less and too many people would downvote it, for reasons.

 

[mellored]

Instead of half level, prof bonus could also work. I just hope the internal testers find a good formula.

But I really understand why they overpowered it. Anything less and too many people would downvote it, for reasons.

Worst case, they can just type in the number.

Martial Arts die +2
At level X it becomes...

 

[Mistwell]

Treantmonk is about to run a 15th level playtest monk through a pretty hardcore challenge in a public manner. I am curious to see how that goes.

 

[Clint_L]

Would your evaluation change if you didn't have those magic items? Because I think that's what's really important- until WotC comes out and says "give your Monk players Bracers of Defense", the design has to assume they don't have them.

Well, her AC would be lower, but then so would the barbarian, fighter, paladin, etc. if they also couldn't use magic.

So if we're taking magic items out of the equation, her AC would be 18, going to 19 next level. A paladin or fighter tank would be 21, using a shield, or 19 without. A barbarian would be at 14, probably going to 15 next level; 16 with shield.

At level 20, again assuming no magic, the fighter and paladin will still be at 21/19. The barbarian will get up to 18/20, presumably. The monk will be at AC 25. Naked.

Monks are not a particularly low AC class, since their unarmored defence synergies better with their primary/secondary stats than does a barbarian's. For example, the new monk capstone gives them +4 AC.

But that said, I don't think having bracers of protection and a ring of protection by level 20 is difficult.