Recurring silly comment about Apocalypse World and similar RPGs

[pemerton]

I was just going off the post I replied to, that was not specified. Let's assume it is Dungeon World, seems reasonable, and the move may be Discern Realities (What here is not what it appears to be?), seems to fit.

OK, so here is Discern Realities:

When you closely study a situation or person, roll+Wis. ✴On a 10+, ask the GM 3 questions from the list below. ✴On a 7–9, ask 1.
Either way, take +1 forward when acting on the answers.

• What happened here recently?
• What is about to happen?
• What should I be on the lookout for?
• What here is useful or valuable to me?
• Who’s really in control here?
• What here is not what it appears to be?​

Now you asked

so if a character searches for a secret door and the roll succeeds, there then is one and the GM has to decide what is behind it?

As @AbdulAlhazred posted, there is no When you search for secret doors move.

Suppose the player has their PC closely study a situation, and the dice are rolled for Discern Realities. And it is as hit rather than a miss. The player gets to ask a question - maybe they ask "What here is useful or valuable to me?"

And maybe the GM responds by asking them, "Well, what would you find useful?" and they reply "A secret door!" And so the GM says, "As you study the wall closely, you notice hairline cracks, and a small bump that you're sure is the "latch" for this secret door."

But there are a millions and one other ways that this might go: the player asks a different question; the GM doesn't ask the player a question, or asks a different question; the GM responds with something different that might be valuable or useful.

So the answer to the question if a character searches for a secret door and the roll succeeds, there then is one is either No, or else The question doesn't quite make sense, because there is no "search for secret doors"move.

 

[pemerton]

great, so if I cannot be compelled, how is that different from me saying 'there isn't one' based on my prep?

Because something has been discerned, just not a secret door? When how is that different from me using my prep to determine what has been observed / discovered?

Have you read the many posts in this thread explaining the procedures of play for AW?

If you do it, you do it: if a player has their PC closely study a situation, the Discern Realities dice have to be rolled.

This is a completely different way of establishing what happens next from the GM looking at their map-and-key and narrating based on that.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

great, so if I cannot be compelled, how is that different from me saying 'there isn't one' based on my prep?

Because something has been discerned, just not a secret door? When how is that different from me using my prep to determine what has been observed / discovered?

Nobody can say why you did what you did, the game simply states things GMs should say, in a general sense and why, in terms of goals and principles by which to play, they should say them. You may be following those rules, or not, I can't say.

 

[mamba]

Suppose the player has their PC closely study a situation, and the dice are rolled for Discern Realities. And it is as hit rather than a miss. The player gets to ask a question - maybe they ask "What here is useful or valuable to me?"

that is all fine, and I understand it. My reply was to

They serve as a source of fiction which the GM can pull from, but not as a set of constraints on actions. You don't decide that a search for secret doors cannot succeed based on your map.

So the premise is wrong, there is no 'search secret door' move, and if they just 'search for things of interest' then I can either point out a secret door or something else.

At that point I believe the conclusion is also wrong, I can then very well decide that there is no secret door in the room, based on my prep. When the characters search for things of interest, I then simply never refer to one. So how can my prep then not be used to decide such things?

 

[mamba]

Nobody can say why you did what you did, the game simply states things GMs should say, in a general sense and why, in terms of goals and principles by which to play, they should say them. You may be following those rules, or not, I can't say.

It's not about whether I follow the rules or not, it is about whether I can use my prep to decide such things, contrary to what you wrote.

The only time this would be about rules is if there were a rule that specifically states that prep cannot be used for this, but I am not expecting that

 

[mamba]

On a completely unrelated note, if I wanted to take a closer look at PbtA and not stray too far from D&D themes, is Dungeon World or Stonetop the better choice?

 

[Faolyn]

But I've been specifically told right here that you can't use prep to determine the success of anything the player wants to do.

There's a difference between worldbuilding and using worldbuilding to determine the success--although I'd have to see that particular post (I must have missed it) to see what they meant.

 

[darkbard]

On a completely unrelated note, if I wanted to take a closer look at PbtA and not stray too far from D&D themes, is Dungeon World or Stonetop the better choice?

Seeing as Stonetop hasn't been published yet and is available in draft form only to Backers (and their groups), Dungeon World is the place to turn. It's also a more generalized game, whereas Stonetop has much more baked-in premise and setting.

 

[Faolyn]

that is all fine, and I understand it. My reply was to


So the premise is wrong, there is no 'search secret door' move, and if they just 'search for things of interest' then I can either point out a secret door or something else.

At that point I believe the conclusion is also wrong, I can then very well decide that there is no secret door in the room, based on my prep. When the characters search for things of interest, I then simply never refer to one. So how can my prep then not be used to decide such things?

OK, if I were running Dungeon World (or any other PbtA game that doesn't have a specific "search for hidden/secret things" move), I'd ask the players how or what they were searching, maybe let each player pick one option rather than let them search again and again and again. If they specifically say something that, to me, sounded like a plausible way to find a secret door (rap on the walls, pull books from the shelves, move the rug or tapestry aside), I'd just let them find it, no roll needed. If the secret door is trapped or lock, well, the rogue playbook has moves to deal with traps and locks.

After all, if I put something in the dungeon, then it's there so the PCs can use it or be affected by it, and it's boring for it to be left unfound just because of a bad roll.

 

[Faolyn]

On a completely unrelated note, if I wanted to take a closer look at PbtA and not stray too far from D&D themes, is Dungeon World or Stonetop the better choice?

There's also Chasing Adventure, which is based on DW, but far more PbtA than D&D.