D&D 5E Why Is The Assassin Rpgue?

[doctorbadwolf]

I am surprised you'd think it was that low of a percentage.

I played an assassin early in 5E and it was able to get these bonuses regularly. We usually had me sneak in and do an alpha strike and then lure the enemy to us on our terms.

Most recently I had an archer build add 3 levels of rogue starting at 16 and become an assassin at 18. We have about 20 encounters after that point and I believe I was able to assassinate in every single combat. My initiative was about 30 each combat (Gift of Alacrity, Bardic Inspiration, high dex). Getting an alpha strike can be trivial when you have high level abilities. Archers, especially, in open areas can attack from 600 feet away and get those assassinations in ...

Now do it at level 5.

 

[Shardstone]

At the very least, I think it would be very difficult, but perhaps not totally impossible. The problem of trying to squeeze every possible "well, these two are pretty similar" class-fantasies into such a small, fixed set. There will always be examples like this, where the squeeze is too tight.

I am fairly well convinced that D&D actually has somewhere between 18 and 24 full class-fantasy concepts in it. 5e has done what it can to make do with only thirteen (and that only because they actually did relent and add Artificer, due to Eberron being so dependent on them.)

Maybe you did it elsewhere in the thread, but I'd love to read your list of these class-fantasy concepts. I agree with you overall.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Maybe you did it elsewhere in the thread, but I'd love to read your list of these class-fantasy concepts. I agree with you overall.

I did not, no.

So, to start off, we have the thirteen present in D&D 5e already. In alphabetical order:

• Artificer, the engineer-as-magician, with shades of other professional fields (blacksmith, surgeon, sapper, etc.)
• Barbarian, the warrior-of-passion, whether it be warp-spasms or altered states of consciousness or spirit-indwelling.
• Bard, the artist-as-magician, whether that art be music, dance, oratory, fencing, whatever.
• Cleric, the devotee-as-magician, servant and shepherd both, remembering that a shepherd's crook was both a tool and a weapon.
• Druid, (these days) merging shapeshifter-as-magician and geomancer-as-magician, calling on the magic of land and beast.
• Fighter, the warrior-of-skill, who transcends the limits of IRL mundane soldiers through grit and tenacity.
• Monk, the warrior-of-discipline, who transcends limits through enlightenment and practiced form, often semi-spiritual in nature.
• Paladin, the warrior-of-devotion, manifesting power through purity, both in keeping promises and in inspiring others to imitate their example.
• Ranger, the warrior-of-the-hunt, who straddles the line between man and beast, city and wilderness, tools and nature.
• Rogue, the warrior-of-trickery, who knows the ways of not being struck or spotted, and of striking and seeing.
• Sorcerer, the inheritor-as-magician, who has magic power not because it was sought, but because it is part of who they are.
• Warlock, the bargainer-as-magician, who represents the power of Faustian bargains and clever swindlers cheating evil powers.
• Wizard, the scientist-as-magician, who represents pure knowledge (e.g. pure math) as the pathway to ultimate power.

Though some argue that some of these should be merged (e.g. Paladin/Cleric is a common one, as is Sorcerer/Wizard), I personally see them as distinct, representing common and relatable narrative structures. We can, at least, see that there are similarities in here. For example, Rogues and Warlocks have surprisingly similar archetype structure, just mirrored across the warrior vs magician line, even though their mechanical expression is essentially never similar. Cleric and Paladin are well-known similar tropes, but I see a critical difference in that Clerics advise and divine, where Paladins inspire and lead.

The first few class-fantasy concepts that I think are absolute shoe-ins, which bring us up to the ~18 mark, are (in no particular order, just what came to mind):

• Assassin, per the thread, the warrior-of-shadow, whose skill with all the subtle ways to stalk (and un-alive) someone transcends mortal limits.
• Warlord, the warrior-of-tactics, who transcends limits by cooperating with others rather than purely through her own mettle.
• Swordmage, the warrior-as-magician, for whom swordplay is magic, and magic is swordplay (or other weapons), one and inseparable.
• Shaman, the spiritualist-as-magician, who straddles the line between material and spirit, the bridge connecting these realms.
• Psion (etc.), the telepath-as-magician, who draws on ESP, the paranormal, occult "science" etc. to bend the rules of reality in their favor.

That brings us to 18--and, notably, all of these have been full classes at some point in both 3.x and 4e, to one extent or another, and many were at least partially represented before 3e as well (e.g. Assassin and Psion were their own classes, Fighters used to include Warlord elements, 2e Priest used to include stuff like how I describe Shaman above.) We also see some more interesting thematic parallels, e.g. the Warlord leverages others the way the Fighter leverages her own skills; the Assassin is borderline (or even actually) magical at hiding and poisoning and all the subtle arts of monitoring and killing people, while the Rogue is simply supremely deft; the Shaman manifests nature and spirituality to act as a conduit for each side, mundane and magical, while the Druid does so to embody and transform these forces. Some of these themes are somewhat subtle in expression, and hard to really do justice to unless they're given full-throated representation.

The next few are a bit more tenuous, in part because they have less representation or are somewhat more specific archetypes, but I think they still stand on their own, particularly when we cast our net wider than just D&D and consider both very close connections (like Pathfinder) and somewhat more distant ones (like video games influenced by D&D, such as Final Fantasy or Warcraft). However, I freely admit that with some of these, it may be more that I want them to be well-represented class-fantasies than that they necessarily are or should be so.

• Alchemist, the chemist-as-magician, who uses magical ingredients and concoctions to control the world...or themselves.
• Avenger, the warrior-of-zeal, whose absolute focus is both shield and sword against their enemies.
• Warden, the warrior-of-the-land, who wears Nature's power like a cloak, and wreaks Her wrath where he walks.
• Summoner, the overseer-as-magician, whose magic lies in getting other beings to use magic for her.
• Invoker, the emissary-as-magician, who calls down disaster against the foes of the faith.
• "Machinist" (not my fav name), the warrior-of-technology, who uses guns, machines, and tools to overcome their foes.

Notably, with these 24 class fantasies, we have an essentially even balance of warriors and magicians: 12 magicians, 11 warriors, and one that is both at once. Some (non-Swordmage) warriors might be using a lot of proper spellcasting (e.g. Assassin might), and some magicians might do a lot of smacking heads (e.g. Cleric often does), but presenting a diverse space of such options is useful and desirable. Further...well, honestly, it's actually pretty hard to come up with anything further! These cover enough ground that, when combined with wiggle-room from multiclassing, feats, subclasses, and other forms of blending/hybridizing, most concepts should have something to represent them. Probably several things, e.g. "someone who uses both arcane magic and martial prowess" has like seven distinct paths in the above stuff (Swordmage specifically, but also extant or hypothetical subclasses of Bard, Fighter, Psion, Rogue, Warlock, and Warlord, and possibly others!) and a couple other near-hits like Avenger, Paladin, or Ranger (not arcane magic) or Warden (less "magic" and more "supernatural power of nature.")

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

What do you mean by an on-level target? If you mean a level 3 assassin can take out a CR 3 opponent, that strikes me as OP. Those CRs (vague as they are) are not meant to suggest appropriate challenge for one-on-one combat.

How so? The setup for assassination requires multiple rounds and checks to get in, kill a target, and get out. If an assassin cant one round kill a sentry the party is likely to face, their abilities are pointless.

A CR 3 vs a 3rd level party is a waste of everyone's time to even roll initiative. The conclusion is foregone, with no risk. Why not get it over with quickly?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

What are the BG3 surprise rules?

When you attack a surprised target, there's no letting them roll initiative to act before the threat they don't know is coming. Assassins essentially get a "free" surprise round, where the action they use to initiate combat doesnt count as their action. They get the surprise action, initiative is rolled, and if they beat the target, they get another free crit. Initiative is also d4 (or maybe d6) + your bonus, so fast people who invested in initiative are much more likely to go first.

At least according to Jeremy Crawford, damage that occurs on an attack but that is gated behind a saving throw does not qualify as the "attack's damage dice" and thus isn't doubled on a crit. However, IF you were to deal poison damage that didn't involve a saving throw... the basilisk is an example of a monster that does this... then those poison damage dice would be doubled.

There's that consistency we've come to know from 5E. Poor ruling, the last thing 5E needs is to make combat more predictable.

 

[jgsugden]

Now do it at level 5.

The availability of surprise rounds is almost entirely up to the DM. When I played an assassin early in the 5E era and set up the PC to be an assassin, the DM with which I was playing didn't make it hard for me to set up surprise rounds. I had the high initiative bonus and almost always went before at least one enemy. I definitely got that surprise round full assassinate against something 75% of the time at least ... although sometimes I was settling for a non-optimal target.

It was a Wood Elf Assassin who took Sharpshooter at 4th to allow very long distance assassination attempts. Combined with high Perception to be aware of enemies and great stealth capabilities - and, as mentioned, a DM that did not metagame to nerf abilities - it was not hard. We dis a modified LMoP for the first 5 levels or so, and then played in a homebrew campaign that went to a fantasy Venice, the Underdark, and an 'Asteroid' Githyanki base in the Astral Plane. I felt the PC was underpowered as a rogue without serious support from an ally (I had a wizard casting haste on me every combat eventually so that I could Haste attack to sneak attack and then ready a bow shot for another turn and get that second sneak each round). However, I did make consistent use of Assassinate.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The availability of surprise rounds is almost entirely up to the DM. When I played an assassin early in the 5E era and set up the PC to be an assassin, the DM with which I was playing didn't make it hard for me to set up surprise rounds. I had the high initiative bonus and almost always went before at least one enemy. I definitely got that surprise round full assassinate against something 75% of the time at least ... although sometimes I was settling for a non-optimal target.

It was a Wood Elf Assassin who took Sharpshooter at 4th to allow very long distance assassination attempts. Combined with high Perception to be aware of enemies and great stealth capabilities - and, as mentioned, a DM that did not metagame to nerf abilities - it was not hard. We dis a modified LMoP for the first 5 levels or so, and then played in a homebrew campaign that went to a fantasy Venice, the Underdark, and an 'Asteroid' Githyanki base in the Astral Plane. I felt the PC was underpowered as a rogue without serious support from an ally (I had a wizard casting haste on me every combat eventually so that I could Haste attack to sneak attack and then ready a bow shot for another turn and get that second sneak each round). However, I did make consistent use of Assassinate.

If you have to optimize just to make it playable, it’s a bad subclass.

And even then, it’s still basically a rogue with no subclass after that one attack in the first round. Inquisitive is better than that.

 

[jayoungr]

A CR 3 vs a 3rd level party is a waste of everyone's time to even roll initiative. The conclusion is foregone, with no risk. Why not get it over with quickly?

Combat is something everybody typically wants to be involved with because it's fun. I don't think a lot of tables are going to enjoy just sitting around while the assassin does a job that the whole party could get in on. Especially when you consider that rogues already have something of a "decker problem" if they're sent to scout.

Also, if the game has encounters that are "a waste of everyone's time to roll initiative," that's a design problem. But if they don't have encounters that are "a waste of everyone's time," then the assassin has nothing to do and we're back to square one.

 

[FrogReaver]

I am surprised you'd think it was that low of a percentage.

I played an assassin early in 5E and it was able to get these bonuses regularly. We usually had me sneak in and do an alpha strike and then lure the enemy to us on our terms.

This was my experience as well. Even took sharpshooter at level 4 for the extra range and no cover penalties. Initiating combat with that huge alpha strike from large distances and then skirmishing back to the party felt good. In infiltration scenarios it was a great way to kill lookouts.

It was very effective.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I am surprised you'd think it was that low of a percentage.

I played an assassin early in 5E and it was able to get these bonuses regularly. We usually had me sneak in and do an alpha strike and then lure the enemy to us on our terms.

Most recently I had an archer build add 3 levels of rogue starting at 16 and become an assassin at 18. We have about 20 encounters after that point and I believe I was able to assassinate in every single combat. My initiative was about 30 each combat (Gift of Alacrity, Bardic Inspiration, high dex). Getting an alpha strike can be trivial when you have high level abilities. Archers, especially, in open areas can attack from 600 feet away and get those assassinations in ...

Seriously? You are getting surprise every single combat?

I genuinely struggle to believe that that is the case. Like I'm not trying to say it wasn't your experience, but I can count the number of times I have ever had surprise while playing 5e on one hand.

For a number of years, I could have counted it on no hands.