D&D 5E Why Is The Assassin Rpgue?

[Kurotowa]

The assassin is the only rogue subclass hat doesn’t do what it’s there to do at level 3. Every other one has significant features that make it stand out from the base class and other rogues, and fulfill the basic archetype.

That's because all their basic archetype is something other than "better at killing people". Which brings us back around to my question, what do you want from an Assassin that would make them feel more like an Assassin yet isn't just "better at killing people"? Because as much as it's the obvious core gimmick, a significant increase to max potential damage just isn't in the cards. Not for a 3rd level feature.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's because all their basic archetype is something other than "better at killing people".

Neither is the assassin archetype. The assassin is able to kill fluidly and disappear, is a highly trained operative (for momentary lack of a more D&Dish word) specialised in infiltration, and asymmetrical combat/warfare using stealth and hit and run tactics.
The Shadow Monk fits the archetype, as does the Gloomstalker Ranger, and I’ve built one using three different rogue subclasses, those being Inquisitive, Swashbuckler, and Thief.

Inquisitive studies a target and can “read” it with an expert eye, making a decent smart assassin. Swashbuckler’s abilities all dovetail with the archetype naturally in terms of mechanics and we reflavour freely in my group. Thief is better at getting in and out of places that are built and staffed to stop anyone doing either than any other rogue.

The Assassin in 2014 gets proficiency, and a round one damage buff that doesn’t even raise the damage ceiling of the attack, it just makes it reliably closer to the top end of the existing damage rogue scale, for that one attack per encounter.

Like seriously an occasional “crit if you hit” feature just isn’t as big a deal as you suggest. It just can’t be every round all day. Like if it requires marking a target as a bonus action, and being hidden from them, that is usually going to take either your whole turn (action hide) or two turns (bonus hide then mark next turn, not be able to hide after attacking this turn)

But we are back around to damage buffs when literally that is not an important aspect of the question, it’s just what both assassins currently have, so we know that skill based features will largely mean abandoning damage buffing, in which case fully cut damage buffing and lean hard into the tactical and “exploration and social pillars” skill stuff that makes an assassin different from a mercenary or just a sneaky cut-throat.

Tangent/
Now my full class also narratively focuses on what really sets assassins apart from mercs, which is that the merc fights for gold and the assassin fights for a cause.

Like fantasy novels want to use the word oftentimes to describe a very skillful poisoner, or whatever, with a guild, that is a phantom murderer for hire, but that doesn’t fit the origin or history of the title. Like I’ve never heard anyone call a CIA wetworks operative as a hitman, but “CIA Assassin” or “KGB Assassin” is pretty common. I’d say the normal way to refer to those individuals.
So, then, a Heroic Assassin is easy to imagine, and becomes someone who is, as a character I played said it, “the blade in the left hand of the people”.

/tangent

Which brings us back around to my question, what do you want from an Assassin that would make them feel more like an Assassin yet isn't just "better at killing people"? Because as much as it's the obvious core gimmick, a significant increase to max potential damage just isn't in the cards. Not for a 3rd level feature.

I’ve spent most of the thread answering this question.

Yeah, I'm only familiar with 2014 version. I've stopped paying as much attention to the playtests.

You may have more experience with the Assassin Rogue at your tables & I'm positive you have more experience analyzing player-facing stuff than me (I usually focus on GM side things), so I'm inclined to trust your perspective that the Assassin Rogue has shortcomings.

Also, I really like some of the ideas you and @I'm A Banana have been ping-ponging like allowing the Assassin to apply Sneak Attack when an enemy is afflicted by certain conditions. Or the idea of it being easier for the Assassin to stay hidden while moving through crowds. I think that's a very elegant & flavorful design approach.

Thanks! I think there are some great ideas there for sure.

I do want to reply specifically to the part I highlighted because it speaks to the larger play style that I think exacerbates/creates some of the Assassin Rogue issues you're describing... Gaining surprise does not always require a Stealth check in my games, sometimes players do it automatically thanks to clever play like another player distracting a guard or the rogue player approaching with disguise.

Yeah playstyle affects rogues in general more than some others.

I also play with groups where there is less of that "combat? combat? where? we've all got to get involved right now!" attitude, and players give each other some slack to try stuff and take the spotlight.

Even when I do call for a Stealth check, a PC with modest Stealth optimizing will usually beat the passive Perception of the monster IME. The exceptions tend to be monsters with Tremorsense or unusual senses, or monsters with both Perception proficiency and Keen Senses that apply in the situation.

So it's more about some clever thinking up front, and then "if they hit (with advantage)"...which is kind of what it should be right?

Yes, right. Exactly.

 

[Maxperson]

Perhaps some sort of rider on the ability. Something like,

"Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit and the target must make a constitution save at 8+proficiency+dexterity modifier or be stunned for one round. You can use your Assassinate ability on any target stunned by this ability. A target can be stunned by this ability no more than once in a 24 hour period."

Now the 3rd level ability has some teeth to put it on par with the other 3rd level abilities.

 

[jmartkdr2]

That's because all their basic archetype is something other than "better at killing people". Which brings us back around to my question, what do you want from an Assassin that would make them feel more like an Assassin yet isn't just "better at killing people"? Because as much as it's the obvious core gimmick, a significant increase to max potential damage just isn't in the cards. Not for a 3rd level feature.

My answer: Rogue, but more so, but in a different way than a thief.

Assassins should be batter at sneak attack, just in general. They can get it a little more easily, it hurts a little more, they can get more use out of rogue-ish weapons (small, concealable) - thieves can keep the "good at all the dex/int skills" bit, swashbucklers can add charisma, etc. But assassins should be the obvious combat rogue.

That or just make them poisoners.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I think of it this way... compare 3rd level Thief to 3rd level Assassin (both with 18 Dex, a rapier & a dagger) backstabbing a bugbear (27 hp) with surprise.

Thief deals 1d8+4+2d6 with rapier Sneak Attack and 1d4 with offhand dagger, for a total of 18 damage. The bugbear may get a chance to fight back or raise the alarm!

Assassin deals 2d8+4+4d6 with rapier Sneak Attack (Assassinate) and 2d4 with offhand dagger (Assassinate), for a total of 32 damage. The bugbear is dead as a doornail.

Don't forget to add the poison damage on each attack, which is also doubled on a crit. 5E should adopt BG3's surprise rules. Assassins can reasonable take out an on-level target then.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Perhaps some sort of rider on the ability. Something like,

"Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit and the target must make a constitution save at 8+proficiency+dexterity modifier or be stunned for one round. You can use your Assassinate ability on any target stunned by this ability. A target can be stunned by this ability no more than once in a 24 hour period."

Now the 3rd level ability has some teeth to put it on par with the other 3rd level abilities.

I like that!

 

[Quickleaf]

Don't forget to add the poison damage on each attack, which is also doubled on a crit. 5E should adopt BG3's surprise rules. Assassins can reasonable take out an on-level target then.

What are the BG3 surprise rules?

At least according to Jeremy Crawford, damage that occurs on an attack but that is gated behind a saving throw does not qualify as the "attack's damage dice" and thus isn't doubled on a crit. However, IF you were to deal poison damage that didn't involve a saving throw... the basilisk is an example of a monster that does this... then those poison damage dice would be doubled.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This thread has me cleaning up my Assassin class and starting to bring it closer to the new style.
I’m actually pretty excited.

 

[jayoungr]

Assassins can reasonable take out an on-level target then.

What do you mean by an on-level target? If you mean a level 3 assassin can take out a CR 3 opponent, that strikes me as OP. Those CRs (vague as they are) are not meant to suggest appropriate challenge for one-on-one combat.

 

[jgsugden]

....How often will this happen in a campaign? Sneak attacks are going to happen every fight - ideally, every attack. But the assassination feature will only happen when you have surprise. This is going to be what, half of fight at absolute best? (meaning you're really trying to set those up and the rest of the party is willing to go along). And you'll win initiative and land the hit maybe half the time. So it's a feature that will activate once per every four battle, at best...

I am surprised you'd think it was that low of a percentage.

I played an assassin early in 5E and it was able to get these bonuses regularly. We usually had me sneak in and do an alpha strike and then lure the enemy to us on our terms.

Most recently I had an archer build add 3 levels of rogue starting at 16 and become an assassin at 18. We have about 20 encounters after that point and I believe I was able to assassinate in every single combat. My initiative was about 30 each combat (Gift of Alacrity, Bardic Inspiration, high dex). Getting an alpha strike can be trivial when you have high level abilities. Archers, especially, in open areas can attack from 600 feet away and get those assassinations in ...