D&D 5E Why Is The Assassin Rpgue?

[doctorbadwolf]

At the very least, I think it would be very difficult, but perhaps not totally impossible. The problem of trying to squeeze every possible "well, these two are pretty similar" class-fantasies into such a small, fixed set. There will always be examples like this, where the squeeze is too tight.

I am fairly well convinced that D&D actually has somewhere between 18 and 24 full class-fantasy concepts in it. 5e has done what it can to make do with only thirteen (and that only because they actually did relent and add Artificer, due to Eberron being so dependent on them.)

Yeah, I like some of the ideas I've seen here, but I really wish they'd just use the arcane trickster as the model of what you can put into level 3 of a rogue archetype, and the playtest overall does look that way.

I mean the assassin has more stuff at 3, it's just that the main feature is a ribbon in power, and the other features will come up very rarely.

I do also think that the Rogue's power level is overrated by wotc a little bit. I'ts a 6 and they treat it like it's an 8. Like I just want a few spells and a special cantrip worth of added oomph, here. it's not a big ask while revising anyway, to bring other subclasses up to the power level of the stronger ones.

And honestly give every rogue sub a small damage boost, even if it's just damage reliability rather than raising the damage ceiling. Like swashbuckler could get a riposte reaction, and the ability to make a bonus action attack if they miss with an attack made as an attack action. Thief gets something that feels like dirty fighting. Assassin gets the ability to mark a target and gain advantage on checks to hide from them, and if they hit the target with advantage from being hidden, your crits are more reliably big damage, like you max the normal dice and then roll the extra crit damage. Same max damage potential, more reliable damage spikes under certain circumstances. I'd love the assassin to get easier crits when hidden or attacking a poisoned target, but you either step on the champion's one thing by lowering the threshold to crit, or do something more like the 2014 assassinate, which would be alot for an ability that can happen several times per combat.

 

[Ancalagon]

I think of it this way... compare 3rd level Thief to 3rd level Assassin (both with 18 Dex, a rapier & a dagger) backstabbing a bugbear (27 hp) with surprise.

Thief deals 1d8+4+2d6 with rapier Sneak Attack and 1d4 with offhand dagger, for a total of 18 damage. The bugbear may get a chance to fight back or raise the alarm!

Assassin deals 2d8+4+4d6 with rapier Sneak Attack (Assassinate) and 2d4 with offhand dagger (Assassinate), for a total of 32 damage. The bugbear is dead as a doornail.

This is it - this is the fantasy, the dream, the moment the assassin player is chasing. It definitely is a big ropleplaying moment, and will be memorable.

buuuuut...

How often will this happen in a campaign? Sneak attacks are going to happen every fight - ideally, every attack. But the assassination feature will only happen when you have surprise. This is going to be what, half of fight at absolute best? (meaning you're really trying to set those up and the rest of the party is willing to go along). And you'll win initiative and land the hit maybe half the time. So it's a feature that will activate once per every four battle, at best.

It's a great feature, but it's just so occasional!

 

[Quickleaf]

This is it - this is the fantasy, the dream, the moment the assassin player is chasing. It definitely is a big ropleplaying moment, and will be memorable.

buuuuut...

How often will this happen in a campaign? Sneak attacks are going to happen every fight - ideally, every attack. But the assassination feature will only happen when you have surprise. This is going to be what, half of fight at absolute best? (meaning you're really trying to set those up and the rest of the party is willing to go along). And you'll win initiative and land the hit maybe half the time. So it's a feature that will activate once per every four battle, at best.

It's a great feature, but it's just so occasional!

That's a great point.

I think the modern / 5e tendency of "going all in" when there's a battle is working against how I imagine the assassin rogue being intended to play.

PCs scout out a spot, notice the sentry, assassin goes in and does their thing, a minute or two of gameplay to resolve the surprise, assassin waves party through.

In that sense, you could have...I dunno... twice as many "mini assassination scenes" as you do "going all in" combats.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It's a great feature, but it's just so occasional!

It's much like the Champion damage bonus feature. Critting 1 out of every 19 non-crit attacks (2 out of 19 non-crit attacks at high levels) is just...not very good or interesting. Yes, it adds damage in the long run. But it takes so long for that damage to actually add up...and on average you're waiting ~18 attacks aka ~9 rounds to see one of those extra crits (~8.5 attacks at high level, so 2-3 rounds on average, depending on whether you make three or four attacks), sometimes many more, and very rarely they'll be rapid-fire.

When compared to the obvious, up-front, it's-right-there-and-obviously-helping pile of bonus dice (4d8 rising to 6d12), it's just...disappointing. Yes, it happens, but it doesn't happen often enough to deliver on the premise.

(Frankly, IMO, the Champion should just deal +1 damage for each attack roll they make...whether or not it hits. Even their misses are near-misses. Simple, easy to track, always useful, naturally grows in power with the character, the player never needs to track anything more special than "how many attack rolls did I make." Make it +2 at high level. Boom: instant simple damage bonus that still rewards long-term slugging it out, no special effort required. With some back-of-the-envelope calculations, it seems to work out fine--it's a bit weaker early on, but due to scaling innately with Extra Attack, it would end up being slightly more expected performance in a vacuum, but incapable of optimization or efficiency improvement, while Superiority Dice permit both.)

 

[I'm A Banana]

That's a great point.

I think the modern / 5e tendency of "going all in" when there's a battle is working against how I imagine the assassin rogue being intended to play.

PCs scout out a spot, notice the sentry, assassin goes in and does their thing, a minute or two of gameplay to resolve the surprise, assassin waves party through.

In that sense, you could have...I dunno... twice as many "mini assassination scenes" as you do "going all in" combats.

This kind of works against D&D's intended design of combats that the whole party contributes to, though. The idea of everyone waiting patiently while the Assassin player makes a few die rolls and avoiding the fight seems kind of like...avoiding the fun part.

 

[O-Castitatis-Lilium]

Assassin Rogue, to me anyways, feels like they took original Thief, trimmed it down, and then never went anywhere with it and just shoved it in as an option. Personally, I think they should have poisons last longer as in a reoccurring damage die until healed, but that's a whole other topic completely; and I think that Assassins should get the old backstab back. If you could sneak up behind an enemy without it seeing and you could get within range of it, you did some serious damage with it. I know they tried to convey this damage with the Sneak Attack function, but the original Backstab might be what the Assassin needs to feel a little more complete to me. Sure, it would need a bit of reigning in when it comes to the dice and whatnot, but i think it could work. I might try it out myself and see, but I do agree it feels a little on the thinner side in terms of abilities.

 

[Quickleaf]

This kind of works against D&D's intended design of combats that the whole party contributes to, though. The idea of everyone waiting patiently while the Assassin player makes a few die rolls and avoiding the fight seems kind of like...avoiding the fun part.

"The Decker Problem" is a matter of degree though.

If it's being resolved within two minutes, I think that falls within something the whole group can enjoy. That's a lot like resolving a Persuasion check with a tiny bit of role-play and stakes setting, or a PC casting pass wall with a bit of back-and-forth dialogue with the GM.

It's also a matter of varying the spice used.

One player defeating a sentry quick to allow the group to penetrate deeper into hostile territory doesn't exclude more challenging fights within that territory that do involve the whole party.

The key with these mini-combats is not to get bogged down. If the monster doesn't go down on the "surprise round" (I know those aren't a thing 5e RAW, it's just easier language for me because I use them in my house rules), the GM needs to either (a) get the rest of the party involved, or (b) make a narrative scene transition playing out the consequences.

In my opinion, it's not "The Decker Problem", rather it's a whole domino of systemic issues within 5e – how does a creature break away from combat (there are no escape/evasion rules)? why does the surprise system allow for wonkiness with the surprised creature's initiative coming first so they're no longer surprised? does the inflating of monster hit points surpass average PC damage inflation and does that discourage Assassin's Creed style play? are the Stealth rules really meant to be followed exactingly?

Rather the problem is the system (and the table culture I've seen coalesce around it) not facilitating quick mini-combats that were extremely common in our AD&D / BD&D games. These can be done in 5e, and I have done them, but it definitely takes some experience and finagling to make it work.

 

[Kurotowa]

Getting there at level 13 means the subclass doesn't do it's job. It has failed.

I don't think the Assassin fails to be an Assassin until 13th level. I think the Assassin relies on your choices with the core Rogue features to be an Assassin. That's why I was talking about how Rogue subclasses have a lower power budget. You're supposed to be getting a lot of your assassin-ness from where you put your six Skill and four Expertise picks. Then the Assassin subclass features come along later as a gravy on top.

Again, this is not my favorite model of class design. But I'm not going to say it's wrong or bad. It's just not for me, and obviously not for you either.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't think the Assassin fails to be an Assassin until 13th level. I think the Assassin relies on your choices with the core Rogue features to be an Assassin. That's why I was talking about how Rogue subclasses have a lower power budget. You're supposed to be getting a lot of your assassin-ness from where you put your six Skill and four Expertise picks. Then the Assassin subclass features come along later as a gravy on top.

Again, this is not my favorite model of class design. But I'm not going to say it's wrong or bad. It's just not for me, and obviously not for you either.

The assassin is the only rogue subclass hat doesn’t do what it’s there to do at level 3. Every other one has significant features that make it stand out from the base class and other rogues, and fulfill the basic archetype.

 

[Quickleaf]

So it took a second to realize you were comparing the 2014 version. Long day. Anyway, now compare them doing thief stuff, like direct stealth based infiltration.
More to the point, that's if the assassin is allowed to surprise targets by their party, if they do it successfully, and if they hit. The Swashbuckler gets to basically not think about how to get SA and rarely has to use disengage.

The assassin terrible, and the only improvement of the new version is that it at least gets something that is useful outside of a single round of combat.

Yeah, I'm only familiar with 2014 version. I've stopped paying as much attention to the playtests.

You may have more experience with the Assassin Rogue at your tables & I'm positive you have more experience analyzing player-facing stuff than me (I usually focus on GM side things), so I'm inclined to trust your perspective that the Assassin Rogue has shortcomings.

Also, I really like some of the ideas you and @I'm A Banana have been ping-ponging like allowing the Assassin to apply Sneak Attack when an enemy is afflicted by certain conditions. Or the idea of it being easier for the Assassin to stay hidden while moving through crowds. I think that's a very elegant & flavorful design approach.

I do want to reply specifically to the part I highlighted because it speaks to the larger play style that I think exacerbates/creates some of the Assassin Rogue issues you're describing... Gaining surprise does not always require a Stealth check in my games, sometimes players do it automatically thanks to clever play like another player distracting a guard or the rogue player approaching with disguise.

I also play with groups where there is less of that "combat? combat? where? we've all got to get involved right now!" attitude, and players give each other some slack to try stuff and take the spotlight.

Even when I do call for a Stealth check, a PC with modest Stealth optimizing will usually beat the passive Perception of the monster IME. The exceptions tend to be monsters with Tremorsense or unusual senses, or monsters with both Perception proficiency and Keen Senses that apply in the situation.

So it's more about some clever thinking up front, and then "if they hit (with advantage)"...which is kind of what it should be right?