D&D General Wizard vs Fighter - the math

Minigiant · Oct 28, 2023

Oofta said:
So I should have been more specific - the problem you have seems to be modern implementations of D&D. Sounds like you want to play an OSR version of the game. There's not a lot that can be done about that, we're never going back to TSR D&D.

I don't want to play OSR either.
I thought I was very clear.

WOTC gave casters a lot of buffs over 3 editions and few drawbacks to counteract with the large amount of buffs. In order to balance the buffs, WOTC extended the dungeon schedule to needing ~7+ medium encounters of strength or ~35+ offensive rounds of combat to stretch out the power by enforcing a long adventuring day.

This stretched out schedule doesn't match every 5e fan's idea of each adventuring day. It's too long for wilderness adventure and way too long for urban adventure. And it doesn't work with Monster of the Week nor Heavy Narrative play well either. It's too long for one size fits all.

I'd prefer that if WOTC gave casters buffs, they're introduce defined weaknesses that match the specific caster's tropes. AND make defying those weaknesses hard. I want every class to have a defined weakness in this team based game.

This way the whole game doesn't have to warp around the tons of buffs caster got.

But that will likely not happen in 5e as those in WOTC can't help themselves in creating new spells and magic subclasses and are afraid of monetary losses of change.

Crimson Longinus · Oct 28, 2023

Minigiant said:
I don't want to play OSR either.
I thought I was very clear.

WOTC gave casters a lot of buffs over 3 editions and few drawbacks to counteract with the large amount of buffs. In order to balance the buffs, WOTC extended the dungeon schedule to needing ~7+ medium encounters of strength or ~35+ offensive rounds of combat to stretch out the power by enforcing a long adventuring day.

This stretched out schedule doesn't match every 5e fan's idea of each adventuring day. It's too long for wilderness adventure and way too long for urban adventure. And it doesn't work with Monster of the Week nor Heavy Narrative play well either. It's too long for one size fits all.

Yes. And that's why DMG has various alternative rest rules so the GM can choose one that better fits the pacing they want.

Minigiant said:
I'd prefer that if WOTC gave casters buffs, they're introduce defined weaknesses that match the specific caster's tropes. AND make defying those weaknesses hard. I want every class to have a defined weakness in this team based game.

This way the whole game doesn't have to warp around the tons of buffs caster got.

But that will likely not happen in 5e as those in WOTC can't help themselves in creating new spells and magic subclasses and are afraid of monetary losses of change.

So what's the point then? You don't believe that they will change the game for your liking, then what? Have you created houserules to alter the game to better suit your tastes?

Minigiant · Oct 28, 2023

Crimson Longinus said:
Yes. And that's why DMG has various alternative rest rules so the GM can choose one that better fits the pacing they want.

And like I saId before. It's not a rest problem. It's a 35 rounds of offense problem.

Crimson Longinus said:
So what's the point then? You don't believe that they will change the game for your liking, then what? Have you created houserules to alter the game to better suit your tastes

Yes. I have houserules that work with as many or fewer encounters or combat rounds per day as I or the party feels to run between rests.

Crimson Longinus · Oct 28, 2023

Minigiant said:
And like I saId before. It's not a rest problem. It's a 35 rounds of offense problem.

I literally cannot understand how you don't see how there are directly related. Less frequent the rests, more combat rounds there will be between them.

Minigiant said:
Yes. I have houserules that work with as many or fewer encounters or combat rounds per day as I or the party feels to run between rests.

Great. So problem solved? Would you care to share them, I'd be genuinely interested.

Micah Sweet · Oct 28, 2023

Crimson Longinus said:
Yes. And that's why DMG has various alternative rest rules so the GM can choose one that better fits the pacing they want.

So what's the point then? You don't believe that they will change the game for your liking, then what? Have you created houserules to alter the game to better suit your tastes?

That's certainly what I did, although Level Up does most of what I want to fix 5e.

Oofta · Oct 28, 2023

Micah Sweet said:
That's certainly what I did, although Level Up does most of what I want to fix 5e.

The fact that we have things like Level Up, or that you can easily modify the core systems is a strength of the game not a weakness. In my ideal world there would be a lot more broadly used competition for D&D. Not only because I think competition drives innovation but it would also mean that people would have more options if D&D doesn't work for them.

But TTRPGs are a relatively small market so we have what we have. I'm just glad D&D has seen a renaissance because I still enjoy playing the game.

Oofta · Oct 28, 2023

Minigiant said:
I don't want to play OSR either.
I thought I was very clear.

WOTC gave casters a lot of buffs over 3 editions and few drawbacks to counteract with the large amount of buffs. In order to balance the buffs, WOTC extended the dungeon schedule to needing ~7+ medium encounters of strength or ~35+ offensive rounds of combat to stretch out the power by enforcing a long adventuring day.

This stretched out schedule doesn't match every 5e fan's idea of each adventuring day. It's too long for wilderness adventure and way too long for urban adventure. And it doesn't work with Monster of the Week nor Heavy Narrative play well either. It's too long for one size fits all.

I'd prefer that if WOTC gave casters buffs, they're introduce defined weaknesses that match the specific caster's tropes. AND make defying those weaknesses hard. I want every class to have a defined weakness in this team based game.

This way the whole game doesn't have to warp around the tons of buffs caster got.

But that will likely not happen in 5e as those in WOTC can't help themselves in creating new spells and magic subclasses and are afraid of monetary losses of change.

All of the issues you listed are with changes from the way TSR era D&D worked.

If you're going to play a modern version of D&D there are still simple fixes just playing the game as designed, possibly using the gritty rest rules. The caster's weakness is the scarce resource of spell slots. You can limit access to new spells in multiple ways. Throw in enemy casters that counterspell now and then. The wizard in my last campaign had less than half the HP of the fighter, and a worse AC. If those aren't weaknesses, I don't know what is.

As far as WOTC wanting to make money and appeal to a broad audience, I really don't know what to say. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. You don't happen to be the target audience for what surveys and feedback told the company most people want (and they seem to be correct given sales results) and that sucks. Meanwhile I, and dozens of other people I've played with over the life of 5E quite enjoy the game. Warts and all.

Minigiant · Oct 28, 2023

Crimson Longinus said:
Great. So problem solved? Would you care to share them, I'd be genuinely interested.

ONE
Latent Mana/Magic Levels.

Locations have levels of life force that can be used to power abilities or adjust resting.

Very High LML areas use Mythic Legend resting and have access to Mythic powers
High LML areas use Epic Heroism resting
Moderate areas use Default resting
Low LML areas use Gritty Heroism resting
Dead Magic zones don't allow resting

Places like dungeons have lower LML than a church or place of healing. The orcs in a dungeon heal faster than you as they have their altar to their dark gods. You need to destroy the altars of your enemies or they will revive their dead.

TWO
Classes without spells gain the ability to burn HD to regain short features. 2 HD for an action surge. 1 HD for 2 Ki.
All casters get Arcane/Divine/Primal recovery.

THREE
My settings are a bit more technological than base D&D.
Renaissance Firearms are purchasable.
Modern Firearms are magic items
Exotic armors and weapons exist

Minigiant · Oct 28, 2023

Oofta said:
All of the issues you listed are with changes from the way TSR era D&D worked.

If you're going to play a modern version of D&D there are still simple fixes just playing the game as designed, possibly using the gritty rest rules. The caster's weakness is the scarce resource of spell slots. You can limit access to new spells in multiple ways. Throw in enemy casters that counterspell now and then. The wizard in my last campaign had less than half the HP of the fighter, and a worse AC. If those aren't weaknesses, I don't know what is.

The wizard doesn't have scarce spell slots. That's my whole argument.

5e casters are designed to have enough spell slots that over 35 rounds of casting, the noncasters catch up. That's too many rounds for anything but a moderate sized dungeon.

Changing rests doesn't fix the problem because you still need 35 rounds of offense between the rests. 8 hour long rest. 1 week long rest. The game still mandates 35 rounds of offensive combat to drain the casters to average the noncaster.

Oofta said:
As far as WOTC wanting to make money and appeal to a broad audience, I really don't know what to say. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. You don't happen to be the target audience for what surveys and feedback told the company most people want (and they seem to be correct given sales results) and that sucks. Meanwhile I, and dozens of other people I've played with over the life of 5E quite enjoy the game. Warts and all.

Nah.
People want change. They just don't want an edition change.... somehow
They want buffs to stuff but want everything to be backwards compatible and not require buying new books.

Pls 5.5E?? NO TAKE 5E!! ONLY 5.5E!

Oofta · Oct 28, 2023

Minigiant said:
The wizard doesn't have scarce spell slots. That's my whole argument.

5e casters are designed to have enough spell slots that over 35 rounds of casting, the noncasters catch up. That's too many rounds for anything but a moderate sized dungeon.

Changing rests doesn't fix the problem because you still need 35 rounds of offense between the rests. 8 hour long rest. 1 week long rest. The game still mandates 35 rounds of offensive combat to drain the casters to average the noncaster.

Nah.
People want change. They just don't want an edition change.... somehow
They want buffs to stuff but want everything to be backwards compatible and not require buying new books.

View attachment 317328
Pls 5.5E?? NO TAKE 5E!! ONLY 5.5E!

I see no reason to believe that most people want the dramatic changes that you want. Minor tweaks? A small fix here and there? Sure. Rewrite the system? Nah.

D&D General Wizard vs Fighter - the math

Minigiant

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Crimson Longinus

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Crimson Longinus

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast

Oofta

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Minigiant

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Oofta

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