D&D (2024) Moon druid math.

[mellored]

A bear makes two attacks, not three (1 claw, 1 bite).

still a lot more damage than a fighter, while surviving longer than a fighter.

And your 2024 druid is not particularly "tanky" unless they stand there and spend all their spell slots on healing (in your example, you have them casting cure wounds, which is using up all their actions for 6 rounds). A cleric could do that with fewer HP to start but a higher AC. A holy cleric in heavy armour and shield, for example, would be more durable than your druid in this example. Are they OP, too?

Didn't claim 2024 was OP. Still trying to determine that.
2014 moon is OP.

Could compare a cleric next.

Bottom line: 9 temporary HP and 16 AC is not that great.

You also get to dual wield a greatsword and longsword.

Though going to 14+Wis AC or 4THP per level doesn't seem out of line.

For example, against your knight the monk comes out far ahead of the 2024 druid. Because the monk actually kills the knight while taking almost no damage.

2024 monk is OP. You said so yourself.
It's not the benchmark we want to use.

It's really not, when you start doing the math with other classes. For standing there and taking a beating it's competitive, but only if it's spending all its resources on healing itself. That's not going to take it very far at level 3.

I did the math with a fighter, spending all the resources to stay standing. 2024 moon survives longer and probably does more damage.

Your welcome to compare other classes.

The 2014 version is way better

2014 is way better than any other class at level 3.
Except 2024 monk.

2024 does scale a bit better but the current proposal still sucks. For example, one way it scales is by giving the druid a bonus to damage from each attack...but all higher CR forms only have one attack.

2024 (T)HP and AC scale the same even if your a mouse. So does your Wis save and any skill your druid has.

Attack bonus is the main thing that doesn't scale.

Though it would be fun to run a level 20 druid as an invincible mouse.

 

[Neonchameleon]

All this is missing the core problem of the 2014 Moon Druid. The problem with the Moon Druid isn't TPK survivability - it's general and attritional survivability. And the knight illustrates the problem.

The problem, simply put, is that the 2014 moon druid gets two wild shapes per short rest - and each bear form can on average stand up to two rounds of being attacked by a CR3 knight. That is for the use of a single resource of which they get two per short rest a 2014 moon druid can entirely negate the expected damage output of the first two rounds of an appropriate CR encounter for the whole party with no further consequences other than the lost of the short rest ability.

The new moon druid might be tougher in the boss fights (as is being measured) but in the expected 6 medium encounter, 2 short rest days, a level 2-4 moon druid can probably soak the damage from most of those encounters for the entire party without dipping into their spell slots. Put a boss fight at the end and the druid can do that in human form with a complete set of spell slots, having saved everyone else's spell slots as well.

 

[Clint_L]

All this is missing the core problem of the 2014 Moon Druid. The problem with the Moon Druid isn't TPK survivability - it's general and attritional survivability. And the knight illustrates the problem.

The problem, simply put, is that the 2014 moon druid gets two wild shapes per short rest - and each bear form can on average stand up to two rounds of being attacked by a CR3 knight. That is for the use of a single resource of which they get two per short rest a 2014 moon druid can entirely negate the expected damage output of the first two rounds of an appropriate CR encounter for the whole party with no further consequences other than the lost of the short rest ability.

The new moon druid might be tougher in the boss fights (as is being measured) but in the expected 6 medium encounter, 2 short rest days, a level 2-4 moon druid can probably soak the damage from most of those encounters for the entire party without dipping into their spell slots. Put a boss fight at the end and the druid can do that in human form with a complete set of spell slots, having saved everyone else's spell slots as well.

I've been mathing it out. 2014 is still a bit OP at levels 3-4, but with improvements to other classes, it's no longer as far ahead. And yes, 2024 monk is now the benchmark until we hear otherwise, but everyone else got a buff, too. Fighters, paladins, and barbarians get mastery. Fighters got another second wind. Paladins got buffed heals.

All of them are better tanks than the current 2024 proposal for moon druid.

So right now, as a I posted earlier, 2014 moon druid is less OP when measured against the new competition at levels 3-4. And it's farther behind after level 5, which is a lot more levels to worry about than 3-4. IMO current iteration of 2024 moon druid is a nonstarter, so we still don't have a viable moon druid.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I've been mathing it out. 2014 is still a bit OP at levels 3-4, but with improvements to other classes, it's no longer as far ahead. And yes, 2024 monk is now the benchmark until we hear otherwise, but everyone else got a buff, too. Fighters, paladins, and barbarians get mastery. Fighters got another second wind. Paladins got buffed heals.

Still missing the point. It is not all about power level. It is the mechanic itself that sucks hard. Swapping an HP bar is problematic. As is browsing the monster manual as a player.

All of them are better tanks than the current 2024 proposal for moon druid.

Does not matter. Power level is not properly adjusted yet. The druid is a full caster. Comparing it to a monk or a fighter is problematic. If they really should tank, they need to have to spend their spell slots at least.

So right now, as a I posted earlier, 2014 moon druid is less OP when measured against the new competition at levels 3-4. And it's farther behind after level 5, which is a lot more levels to worry about than 3-4. IMO current iteration of 2024 moon druid is a nonstarter, so we still don't have a viable moon druid.

Again. The 2024 version is perfectly fine powerwise if you compare it to the other subclasses instead of a broken concept.
I don't particularly like the current iteration, but at least it does not have broken mechanics.

 

[mellored]

The moon druid spending all their resources (i.e
spells) to tank, should be roughly on par with fighters and paladins spending all their resources to tank.

I've been mathing it out.

Care to share your number?

And yes, 2024 monk is now the benchmark

Level 3, monk vs CR 3 knight.
Knight has +5 to hit, for 10 damage, 2 attacks.

Assuming monk dodges with the action and bonus action punch and spends DP to keep the fight 1v1.

16 AC with disadvantage = 25% chance to hit.

10-6-1d10
70% chance of 0 damage
30% chance of 2 = 0.6
0.0625 of getting hit twice = .6

21 HP / 1.2 DPR = 17.5 rounds

That's the same as 2014 moon with 3 short rests.
So yea, that's OP.

until we hear otherwise, but everyone else got a buff, too. Fighters, paladins, and barbarians get mastery. Fighters got another second wind. Paladins got buffed heals.

I did forget to add defensive style and Sap.

2024 moon druid is a nonstarter, so we still don't have a viable moon druid.

How do you figure?

I could see tweaks, but what part is a nonstarter?

 

[mellored]

I don't particularly like the current iteration, but at least it does not have broken mechanics.

I'd rather see lower AC and more THP.
Like 11+Wis AC and 5 THP per level.

Feels more primal/ beast like that way.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I've been mathing it out. 2014 is still a bit OP at levels 3-4, but with improvements to other classes, it's no longer as far ahead.

Your "Mathing it out", so far as I can tell, misses where it is obnoxious because it only looks at single fights rather than across the adventuring day. In an adventuring day when you have a variety of difficulties of fight and are actually doing things based on the guidelines of six encounters and two short rests.

The 2014 Moon Druid shows up with two buffers of 35hp per rest. Due to the low AC (although the hp are fully effective against AoE spells) this works out as more like 50hp per rest. And coming along with 50hp per rest with anything vaguely approaching the recommended rates of six encounters and two short rests makes attrition and small fights any time rests are allowed at level 2-4 not work.

The "overcoats of temp hp" need to go - the Moon Druid breaks entire playstyles in a way that no one else comes close to. The question is what to replace them with.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'd rather see lower AC and more THP.
Like 11+Wis AC and 5 THP per level.

Feels more primal/ beast like that way.

That is still too much. I'd rather have a bark skin like THP buffer per round.

5 THP per wild shape use on top of d8+con hp per level still outshines every other tanking class. If it was 5 THP per level, at least you should be knocked out of wildshape if they are all gone.

 

[Clint_L]

I ignore the "adventuring day" guideline as I think it's meaningless; there is absolutely no consistency in how games are actually played. What matters is how classes compare to each other.

And I strongly disagree that "overcoats of temp hit points" (which is an oversimplified way to describe wild shape) are an inherent problem. To the contrary, I think they offer a different approach to tanking that is tactically interesting. The current 2024 proposal basically just tries to turn the moon druid into a fighter by giving an actual temp HP adjustment and buff to AC. It's boring.

Tanking has a few components. The main one is survivability, but generating threat and protecting allies are important as well.

In terms of survivability, there are several different approaches:

Avoidance: using some combination of armour and mobility to avoid taking the damage in the first place. In D&D this is usually passive and comes from AC or abilities like dodge and evasion.

Soaking: using HP like a sponge. This is the current model for low level moon druids: low AC, high HP. Again, passive.

Resistance: the barbarian model. Relatively low AC but damage is reduced. Functionally similar to soaking, depending on how the resistances are distributed. Again, passive. In many ways, barbarian and moon druid tanking is comparable.

Mitigation: reducing the incoming damage through active choices that use resources. Second wind, lay on hands, healing spells, and deflect attack are typical methods.

So if we look at a paladin, they have a great tanking chassis with high avoidance, decent soaking, and good mitigation, though with a significant resource cost. 2024 monks (at low levels) have poor soaking, average avoidance, but exceptional mitigation with a very low resource cost. Barbarians have high resistance and high soaking. Fighters have high avoidance, decent soaking, and limited mitigation. And moon druids have terrible avoidance, extraordinary soaking, and good mitigation with a significant resource cost.

For generating threat and protecting allies, paladins are exceptional. Barbarians are good to excellent, depending on subclass. Fighters are also very good at generating threat; their ability to protect allies is generally mediocre and sub-class dependent. 2024 monks will be great at generating threat but poor at protecting allies. 2014 moon druids generate threat very well at low levels, poorly at higher levels, and are a good support class when they leave wild shape, which means they can't really help allies and tank at the same time.

The current problem with moon druids is scaling. They are OP for a few levels, then UP for a bunch of levels, then arguably broken at level 20 by the druid capstone. This is true of both damage dealing and damage soaking. I think we are paying too much attention to them being OP for a few low levels; that's not the main problem, and addressing wider issues should address that as well, but again I emphasize that they are not going to be as OP as they were when 2024 rolls around because:

1. A level 2-4 problem becomes a level 3-4 problem.
2. Other classes are getting unquestionably buffed, some extensively.

And I also don't like the current approach, which seems to be to use wild shape to turn them into kinda sorta fighters.

 

[mellored]

That is still too much. I'd rather have a bark skin like THP buffer per round.

5 THP per wild shape use on top of d8+con hp per level still outshines every other tanking class. If it was 5 THP per level, at least you should be knocked out of wildshape if they are all gone.

Level 3 Life cleric gets 15 bonus healing per Channel Divinity.

So 15 THP with low AC seems right to me.

The current 2024 proposal basically just tries to turn the moon druid into a fighter by giving an actual temp HP adjustment and buff to AC. It's boring.

Are you saying fighters are boring?

And moon druids have terrible avoidance, extraordinary soaking, and good mitigation with a significant resource cost.

I'm not sure I would call wild shape a significant resource cost.

Or are you including spells?

I do agree that they should soak more though.

The current problem with moon druids is scaling. They are OP for a few levels, then UP for a bunch of levels,

2024 scales a lot better because you can use your spell with wild shape better.

+ Wis to concentration checks lets you keep the new Barkskin / Font of Moonlight/ Vampiric Touch going.
Will Resurgence let's you refill your THP with a level 1 slot.
Elemental Fury adds a 1/turn damage boost.

At level 8,
2014 polar bear has 12 AC and 49 HP, + regain 1d8 with a level 1 spell

2024 polar bear has 18 AC and 24 THP, + regain 24 THP with a level 1 spell, +1d8 damage per turn, +wis to concentration saves