D&D (2024) Moon druid math.

[mellored]

Just some quick survivability math for the new moon druid to see how much they got nerfed.


The same
CR (except level 2)
saves
Skills
attacks.
Wild shape uses (less at low level, more at high levels)

2024 gets
+xd8 damage once per turn, + another 1d10 at high levels
+can talk
+cast selected spells, including a ranged cantrip
+AC
+Wis to Concentr⁠ation saves.
+turn spell slots into more wild shape
+teleport... for some reason.
+stay in form even after losing (t)HP.

They lose
-a lot of effective HP
-elemental forms
-number of known form (need to preselect).


Level 3, brown bear vs CR 3 knight.
Knight has +5 to hit, for 10 damage, 2 attacks.

Vs 2014
11 AC = Hit 75% of the time
34 hp / 15 = 2.2 rounds of THP/bear form.
*still has 27 Druid HP.

Vs 2024
16 AC = hits 50% of the time
9THP / 10 = 0.9 rounds of THP.
+27 HP / 10 = 3.6 rounds of bear form.

So you get to be a bear for 60% longer.
But you have to heal between fights.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Interesting!

Q: What do you mean by they lose the need to preselect forms? (Edit: Oh wait, you mean that they DO need to preselect forms, which counts as a net loss. I get it.)

In your comparison against the Knight, the 2014 Druid is out of bear form but STILL ALIVE, while the 2024 Druid stayed in bear form until they died, right?

 

[mellored]

In your comparison against the Knight, the 2014 Druid is out of bear form but STILL ALIVE, while the 2024 Druid stayed in bear form until they died, right?

Until they fall unconscious, but yes.

However, I should add in the spells. New one has a lot more ways to use the slots.

Old can heal 1d8 per spell level as a bonus action.

New can heal 2d8 per spell level (+ Wis) as an action.
Or at level 5+ can get 3x level THP as a bonus action for any spell level.
Or use Vampiric Touch to damage and heal.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I think that being in Bear form longer but not getting quite so huge a sack of extra HP is a pretty good trade-off for Moon Druids. My initial response to the latest Druid was "meh", but maybe I should give it a try in play first..

 

[mellored]

I think that being in Bear form longer but not getting quite so huge a sack of extra HP is a pretty good trade-off for Moon Druids. My initial response to the latest Druid was "meh", but maybe I should give it a try in play first..

Yea. It looks pretty good overall for me for anyone who wants to play a shape shifter and not just a caster with a bonus action 3 turn invulnerable.

I.e. more bear, but cost your spell slots.

My only really possible concern is higher level attack bonus.

And kinda odd they get teleport, but meh.

 

[mellored]

Assuming you spend your slots to heal in bear form....

Level 3, brown bear vs CR 3 knight.
Knight has +5 to hit, for 10 damage, 2 attacks.

Using spell slots to heal.

Vs 2014
11 AC = Hit 75% of the time
34 hp + 3d8 spell slots = 45.5
/ 15 = 3 rounds of THP
+27 druid HP

Vs 2024
16 AC = hits 50% of the time
9THP + 3x(2d8+3) = 40.5
/ 10 = 4 rounds of THP.
+27 Druid HP (in bear form)

So... If you use all your slots to heal in bear form, the new druid is actually buffed.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Assuming you spend your slots to heal in bear form....

Level 3, brown bear vs CR 3 knight.
Knight has +5 to hit, for 10 damage, 2 attacks.

Using spell slots to heal.

Vs 2014
11 AC = Hit 75% of the time
34 hp + 3d8 spell slots = 45.5
/ 15 = 3 rounds of THP
+27 druid HP

Vs 2024
16 AC = hits 50% of the time
9THP + 3x(2d8+3) = 40.5
/ 10 = 4 rounds of THP.
+27 Druid HP (in bear form)

So... If you use all your slots to heal in bear form, the new druid is actually buffed.

Sadly the feedback period is over...
I hope more people did the math before just downvoting it...

 

[Clint_L]

Just some quick survivability math for the new moon druid to see how much they got nerfed.


The same
CR (except level 2)
saves
Skills
attacks.
Wild shape uses (less at low level, more at high levels)

2024 gets
+xd8 damage once per turn, + another 1d10 at high levels
+can talk
+cast selected spells, including a ranged cantrip
+AC
+Wis to Concentr⁠ation saves.
+turn spell slots into more wild shape
+teleport... for some reason.
+stay in form even after losing (t)HP.

They lose
-a lot of effective HP
-elemental forms
-number of known form (need to preselect).


Level 3, brown bear vs CR 3 knight.
Knight has +5 to hit, for 10 damage, 2 attacks.

Vs 2014
11 AC = Hit 75% of the time
34 hp / 15 = 2.2 rounds of THP/bear form.
*still has 27 Druid HP.

Vs 2024
16 AC = hits 50% of the time
9THP / 10 = 0.9 rounds of THP.
+27 HP / 10 = 3.6 rounds of bear form.

So you get to be a bear for 60% longer.
But you have to heal between fights.

Perhaps I aim misunderstanding your first example, but shouldn't the druid be using their wild shape twice, giving them 68 HP as a bear? And how is a level 3 druid at 27 HP? With standard array, assuming +1 con, they should be at 19 HP.

So by my reckoning, the 2014 druid would have AC 11, 87 HP (effective), and the 2024 would have AC 16, 28 HP (effective). Healing is complicated to factor in; the 2014 version can do it as a bonus action, which is a definite advantage, but the 2024 version would get the more powerful heals, at the cost of their action.

Setting healing aside, the 2014 version survives three round as a bear, getting knocked out of wildshape on round 3, wildshapes again into bear, and in total lasts 8 rounds. The 2024 version survives three rounds. The 2014 version is a bear twice as long, and survives much longer. This does not surprise me; 9 HP+5 AC is not nearly as strong as 68 HP.

The deeper issue is that WotC is being told, again and again, that this isn't about optimization, anyway. It's about the class fantasy of druids shapeshifting into animals. Not template hybrid beasts. For example, not being able to speak while wild shaped? At our games, that's a feature, not a flaw - it makes the game way more fun and interesting as our moon druid player does her best to communicate her intentions through body language and animal noises. I get that that's not for everyone, but for a lot of folks that kind of stuff is why they love the sub-class.

I think the fix to moon druid is to let them also shape shift into selected beast-like monstrosities and to let their damage and AC scale a bit better. Other than that, they are OP at levels 3-4. Eh.

 

[Clint_L]

Using spells to heal makes the 2024 more competitive, but keep in mind that it also turns them into a pure punching bag, where the 2014 version is still fighting. So let's do the math - using the buffed 2024 spells to give new druid every advantage.

The 2024 druid is taking 10 damage per round, but can heal more than that every round. In fact, with their second level slots they can heal almost double that! So my napkin math suggests that this buys them 8 extra rounds...if they stand there and get whaled on. So they survive 11 rounds, total, though doing very little damage to the knight.

2014 druid is going to be healing as a bonus action. That extra 44 HP puts them to 136 HP altogether, giving them 10 rounds to survive (just barely!). Edge to the 2024 druid?

Sadly, no. because our 2014 druid has been attacking for every one of those rounds. A knight is a very tough opponent to 1v1 at level 3, yet our druid has been hitting them for 9 HP/round. That knight died back on round 6.

Okay, so maybe the 2024 druid uses healing word, also a bonus action. They are doing the same DPR, so can they get to round 6 and kill the knight? Yes! They will use all their spell slots but they should come out intact. The 2014 druid doesn't actually need to use any spell slots for healing in order to win this battle, though.

So even factoring in healing, the 2014 moon druid is better as a pure tank at this level against this opponent. Although buffing AC definitely improves survivability, the HP loss is so extreme that the buffed AC doesn't compensate for it.

 

[Clint_L]

One final point: nothing happens in a vacuum, and these nerfs to moon druid tanking are happening when other classes are getting their ability to tank buffed. In that same 1v1, a level 3 2024 monk pulverizes the knight and is not even scratched. And that's without spending a single di point (the knight averages 10 DPR; the monk can absorb 11.5 DPR as a reaction).