D&D General Explain Bounded Accuracy to Me (As if I Was Five)

And no, commoners cannot do that. Not to my knowledge, anyway. Because, guess what? They can't hit high-level minions.
20 always hits.

You also wouldn't design fights pitting such things against one another anyway. Because fights are from the perspective of player characters. Commoners would not even rise to the level of a hazard or trap in most high-Heroic contexts, let alone anything else.

Either it's a fight from a commoner-centered perspective, in which case you'd never use minion rules in the first place, or it's from a Paragon/Epic-centered perspective, in which case the commoners wouldn't be participating as individual combatants. Maybe as a massive swarm of commoners, but even then I'd expect them to be exceedingly weak even in comparison to Paragon-tier threats and genuinely irrelevant (other than as set-dressing cannon fodder) for any Epic-tier fight.

Yes. Yet you just talked about how the numbers of demon prince vs commoner were relevant, like they were some objective presentation of reality. But in 4e they aren't and cannot be, because the numbers just get changed as needed to serve the desired narrative role. There really isn't any objective stats for a commoner, or a demon prince, or anything except the PCs.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Enforcing this design principle dooms you to a guaranteed disparity between the experience offered(/"promised") by the rules and the actual experience people will have with them. Which is why combat is fundamentally not that satisfying in 5e--even in implementations of it designed to be much more interesting, like BG3.

And I would argue that the vast majority of people who play 5e--because the vast majority of them don't know anything about 4e--haven't said a damn thing about what they "value more" or not.
The same argument could be made for 1e, or indeed any game that isn't WotC 5e for such players; it isn't specific to 4e.

And if the promise being incompatible with the reality is the issue, then the best way to handle is to make them agree. Either change the rules to match the narrative promise, as 4e did, or change the promise to match the rules. As was more the case in prior editions and newer games based on them. For example, if your game doesn't strongly support fantasy superheroes and epic, PC-centered narratives, don't claim that it does.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
It also makes sense if the world objectively exists, but the

And no, commoners cannot do that. Not to my knowledge, anyway. Because, guess what? They can't hit high-level minions.

You also wouldn't design fights pitting such things against one another anyway. Because fights are from the perspective of player characters. Commoners would not even rise to the level of a hazard or trap in most high-Heroic contexts, let alone anything else.

This is like saying that relativity can't possibly be true because different perspectives disagree on things like the order of events. This is demonstrably false. We know that the relativity of simultaneity is weird and confusing and can lead to events being comparatively reversed in two reference frames that are moving relative to one another. Once you account for that motion, however, no confusion nor ambiguity exists, though different perspectives might reach the same conclusion for different reasons. (Frex, muons have too short a half-life to be able to reach Earth's surface normally, but we actually do observe them from cosmic radiation striking the upper atmosphere. This is only possible because of relativity. From our perspective, where the particle is moving crazy fast, we observe the particle to experience time dilation, its clock slows down relative to ours. From the particle's perspective, the world proceeds at exactly the same rate everywhere, but the travel distance from the upper atmosphere to the ground is contracted, allowing it to reach the ground within its half-life.)

So pick the context that the fight occurs in. Commoner-centered, or Paragon-/Epic-centered.

Either it's a fight from a commoner-centered perspective, in which case you'd never use minion rules in the first place, or it's from a Paragon/Epic-centered perspective, in which case the commoners wouldn't be participating as individual combatants. Maybe as a massive swarm of commoners, but even then I'd expect them to be exceedingly weak even in comparison to Paragon-tier threats and genuinely irrelevant (other than as set-dressing cannon fodder) for any Epic-tier fight.

Once you have set the perspective, your alleged "absurd" results evaporate. The world itself remains exactly what it is, no more and no less; the mechanics to represent it differ depending on what representation is relevant. Like any data representation, really. Sometimes you need mean, median, and mode, and sometimes you need variance(/SD), skewness, and kurtosis. (I once got flying colors on a stats project because I dug deep enough into the statistics--using skewness and kurtosis--to identify that a seemingly-uniform distribution was, almost certainly, actually a bimodal distribution with the two sub-distributions partially overlapping in the middle.)
Agreed. If you're using a 4e example, you have to present it from the 4e perspective.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
20 always hits.





Yes. Yet you just talked about how the numbers of demon prince vs commoner were relevant, like they were some objective presentation of reality. But in 4e they aren't and cannot be, because the numbers just get changed as needed to serve the desired narrative role. There really isn't any objective stats for a commoner, or a demon prince, or anything except the PCs.
In 4e the PCs are the center of the universe. Everything exists in relation to them. You have to approach the game from that perspective if you wish to treat it fairly, whether you like that perspective or not.
 

In 4e the PCs are the center of the universe. Everything exists in relation to them. You have to approach the game from that perspective if you wish to treat it fairly, whether you like that perspective or not.
Yeah, I get it. But this being the case it is confused to say things like the numbers having to scale so that a daemon prince can autobluff a commoner. That's not what the rules are for in this sort of paradigm, nor do demon princes or commoners really even have any objective rules attached to them, as those rules are only determined by their relationship to the PCs.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Vocal minorities keep lots of threads alive all over the internet. ;)

It's notall vocal minorities.

It's people not understanding the Situation.


1) D&D is a game about progression
2) Every major stat can progress.
3) Every major stat you force to either not progress or not matter puts pressure on other stats to progress.
4) Stats that have the progress pressure increases faster with levels



Decide to "bound accuracy" to make orcs a threat at level 12, HP and Damage balloons.

Decide to "bound damage" to make everything decent damagers at base, Attack and AC balloons.

Decide that both "Accuracy and AC" and "Damage and HP" should be bound, maybe "Saving Throws and DCs" skyrocket.

Bound Accuracy and AC" and "Damage and HP" and "Saving Throws and DCs", maybe D&D becomes a loot box slash

Or you make 2 versions of the basic orc.

You want 20 levels of orc, those are most of your choice
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It's notall vocal minorities.
I wasn't suggesting that they were. I was refuting the idea that the thread is here for sure because DMs are unwilling to create monsters or use the ones that are there. That sounded like you were ignoring that it could be a vocal minority. :)
1) D&D is a game about progression
Yes.
2) Every major stat can progress.
Yes.
3) Every major stat you force to either not progress or not matter puts pressure on other stats to progress.
Or you pick a feat if that option is in use.
4) Stats that have the progress pressure increases faster with levels
Usually, yes.
Decide to "bound accuracy" to make orcs a threat at level 12, HP and Damage balloons.
That was the choice that 5e took, sure. It didn't have to, though. They could have modified damage so that it didn't rise as quickly as it currently does and bound accuracy. Hit points wouldn't need to balloon in that case. The ballooning of hit points isn't because of bounded accuracy, but rather due to the decision to balance combat around resource attrition.
Decide to "bound damage" to make everything decent damagers at base, Attack and AC balloons.
Again, not necessarily. If you reduce the rate of damage increase, then even if bounded you don't have to increase attack and AC.
Decide that both "Accuracy and AC" and "Damage and HP" should be bound, maybe "Saving Throws and DCs" skyrocket.

Bound Accuracy and AC" and "Damage and HP" and "Saving Throws and DCs", maybe D&D becomes a loot box slash
See above.
Or you make 2 versions of the basic orc.

You want 20 levels of orc, those are most of your choice
It wasn't supposed to be and isn't 20 levels. They wanted orcs to be a threat for longer, not for the entire 1-20 experience.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
That was the choice that 5e took, sure. It didn't have to, though. They could have modified damage so that it didn't rise as quickly as it currently does and bound accuracy. Hit points wouldn't need to balloon in that case. The ballooning of hit points isn't because of bounded accuracy, but rather due to the decision to balance combat around resource attrition.
If you don't ballon damage, saves, gold, items, or something else, players would not feel any progression.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Which means the abstraction can, and should, change if doing so gets closer to the actual state of affairs.
Well, we can get into the weeds about how to define what the state of affairs in fact is, but that'll likely get us nowhere.
Not at all. It follows that the rules should prioritize efficacy and functionality. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." Consistency is not an unalloyed good. It has many benefits, and thus we should not dismiss a wise consistency. I myself am an advocate for a wide variety of particular kinds of consistency, e.g. unified resolution mechanics, not on the brute fact that they are consistent, but rather because their consistency leads to something else that is valuable in itself, such as making it easier, simpler, and more natural to adjudicate, or to speed up the learning process (which is, was, and always will be the single greatest hurdle to getting people into the hobby.) Requiring that the rules rigidly produce only and exactly one description of something, when that thing's value is necessarily relative to the context in which it appears, is a foolish consistency, pulling us away from efficacy and functionality.
Disagree in both directions.

Consistency in resolution mechanics IMO often tends to blur the abstraction rather than sharpen it, as that which is abstracted then has to be shoehorned into fitting with the unified mechanic. Discrete subsystems for the win, here.

As for consistency of description: absent illusion magic (which I'll henceforth ignore for these purposes), any given thing is what it is. Thus, the description of that thing shouldn't change. The 8'-high by 3'-wide stone door in front of you with the leering gargoyle face carved on it is what it is whether you're viewing it in bright light, dim red torchlight, or through a telescope from 300 yards away. Even if you can't see it at all, it's still there and its properties haven't changed.

The same is true of a living creature. Take our old friend the ogre: he has a set of intrinsic properties, which we describe as best we can by using numbers: 88 hit points, strength 21, 9'3" tall, AC 12 unless wearing armour, 640 lbs weight, etc. etc.; and those things don't change simply based on who/whatevr he happens to be interacting with at the time.

Same is true of your PC. You've got a whole bunch of numbers on your character sheet describing her in some detail; and those numbers are locked in no matter what she's doing in the fiction or who she's interacting with at the moment. Her maximum hit points don't suddenly drop to 1 when she meets Orcus at 6th level; she still has all 48 of 'em, and even though Orcus might be capable of hammering her for 60 points a round if he wants to, she might get lucky and survive a few rounds if he rolls crap for damage.

The other IMO ludicrous possibility is that a single creature might present different mechanics to two or more other creatures interacting with it at the same time! Let's take our trusty ogre again, and put him up against Xena - a 17th-level killing machine - and Gabrielle, her 6th-level protege*. In your model, to Xena our ogre is a 1-point wonder (even though Xena at her best can only hope to give out 60 points damage a round, barring criticals), while Gabrielle - standing right next to her - has to chop through all 88 of its hit points no matter what.

And if another ogre comes up during all this and punches our poor original ogre in the nose for being such a lousy watchman, what mechanics does the new ogre get to deal with while violently interacting with the first one?

Bleah, says I! Far simpler to just say the ogre has the 88 hit points it has and let its foes - no matter who they are - chop through them as they may. And if that means it on average takes high-level PCs a bit longer to mow down low-level opponents (thus giving those low-level opponents a bit longer to pose a threat), I count that as a benefit rather than a drawback: the power curve has been flattened.

* - yeah, yeah, 4e doesn't like mixed-level parties; but master and sidekick working as a team is a trope as old as the hills, and if a supposedly big-tent game can't handle such things I'd call that a rather epic design fail.
But that was exactly my point...?
??? I thought you were suggesting that 54% was a very poor intend-to-adopt rate. If I misread that, sorry.
The map is not the territory--and different maps actually do have different information on them. The territory always remains whatever it is (I assume you grant that we're looking at the territory only in one particular moment.) But which parts of the territory are in fact on the map, and which ones are intentionally left off the map, varies by context. It is precisely the same with the level 2 solo ogre and the level 14 (or whatever) minion ogre. Different data has been represented in the abstraction, because we have proverbially "zoomed out."
So not only do the PCs mechanically grow as they level up, the monsters mechanically "shrink" as well. The latter part of that would seem to be a large part of why 4e's power curve is so (IMO unnecessarily) steep.
Except that there is a reason. The 88-HP ogre cannot produce the kind of experience you intend with this. It just can't. That's the whole point. You are hoping and praying that coincidence will fall in your favor. We can do better; we can design better.
What's the "intended experience", though; and why are we designing toward an intended experience rather than designing agnostically and letting things happen as they may?
 


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