D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

Remathilis · Apr 17, 2024

Micah Sweet said:
Sure, but early on they can be mundane. You claimed earlier that there was no reason for them to do so. "Why wait?"

The issue is that people are advocating that at 11th level, they flip a switch and fighters are no longer badass normals but supernatural heroes. Why wait until 11, when most campaigns start winding down? Why not 5th when the cracks start to appear? Why not 3rd when you pick your subclass? Why not part of the class's story like paladin or barbarian?

I'm not advocating 1st level fighters can fly at will, but let's dispense with the idea that a fighter is just some dude until he kills 1000 Orcs, and then he becomes a magical creature.

Minigiant · Apr 17, 2024

TwoSix said:
Exactly. Contrast Ryu and Ken's Hadoken (which is just heightened technique) with M. Bison's explicit channeling of the Psycho power, which is obviously intended to be "supernatural".

Heck Balrog and Vega were mundane but had crazy technical attacks and movement.

Ryu and Ken were monks though.

Remathilis · Apr 17, 2024

Minigiant said:
Heck Balrog and Vega were mundane but had crazy technical attacks and movement.

Ryu and Ken were monks though.

All Street Fighter characters are like 20th level monks, or some mix of barbarian, rogue and Monk.

Mephista · Apr 17, 2024

Yaarel said:
Maybe by definition, the word "supernatural" means the Weave.

The Weave emanates from nature but is extra in addition to nature, and can override nature.

Oppositely, Martial, Psionic, and Primal are all intrinsic, innate, and natural, despite the capacity to be magically "extraordinary".

I would not say that at all. The Weave is name for background magical radiation field of the different D&D worlds. Spellcasting works by manipulating that field directly, and magic items tap into it for powering their enchantments.

Dragons, meanwhile, can fly and breath elements through supernatural means, but they do not require the background magic radiation field to do so.

Micah Sweet · Apr 17, 2024

Remathilis said:
The issue is that people are advocating that at 11th level, they flip a switch and fighters are no longer badass normals but supernatural heroes. Why wait until 11, when most campaigns start winding down? Why not 5th when the cracks start to appear? Why not 3rd when you pick your subclass? Why not part of the class's story like paladin or barbarian?

I'm not advocating 1st level fighters can fly at will, but let's dispense with the idea that a fighter is just some dude until he kills 1000 Orcs, and then he becomes a magical creature.

I would be cool with 5th, but probably more comfortable with 7th-9th. And you get to be a supernatural fighter or rogue earlier than that when you choose a supernatural archetype. But the class narrative for both has them start out as mundane because that narrative, "the normal guy in a magical world" has a huge amount of influence on the fantasy that D&D wants to draw from and has itself influenced.

What supernatural stuff did Chris Pine's character from the recent D&D movie do? Or Michelle Rodriguez's character?

Crimson Longinus · Apr 17, 2024

Remathilis said:
The issue is that people are advocating that at 11th level, they flip a switch and fighters are no longer badass normals but supernatural heroes. Why wait until 11, when most campaigns start winding down? Why not 5th when the cracks start to appear? Why not 3rd when you pick your subclass? Why not part of the class's story like paladin or barbarian?

I'm not advocating 1st level fighters can fly at will, but let's dispense with the idea that a fighter is just some dude until he kills 1000 Orcs, and then he becomes a magical creature.

Because a lot of people want to play a badass normal and this way they can for most of the campaign. But some subclasses can get explicitly supernatural earlier.

TwoSix · Apr 17, 2024

Micah Sweet said:
Ryu and Ken shoot fireballs. How is that not supernatural? What do I, or anyone else on Earth, need to do to learn how to throw fireballs?

Because as this thread shows, the meaning of "supernatural" is complicated.

For starters, the meaning of "supernatural" depends on your frame of reference. On Earth, throwing a fireball is supernatural. On Street Fighter Earth, if you can train your karate skills to throw a fireball, is it supernatural anymore? Would be it be "supernatural" from the frame of reference of the people on Street Fighter Earth?

Mephista · Apr 17, 2024

Minigiant said:
Sorcerers were hinted as being dragon descendants since 3e

And to manifest said hinted dragon abilities, you needed a Prestige Class that effectively turned you into a half-caster; core sorcerer was a full-caster without dragon stuff. And even back in 3e, you could undergo rituals to change your race into a dragon-like one, so no bloodline required. Dragonborn and spellscales, I believe the names were?

Then, in 4e, we had wild magic, storm magic and cosmic magic, none of which relied on bloodlines. The bloodline thing is restricted to dragon only, and even that was always fluid, since even in 3e we had rituals to turn your race into a dragonborn (and spellscale?)

You're thinking Pathfinder Sorcerer, where bloodline is all. That's never really been the D&D sorcerer.

Remathilis said:
Right, and that's an error worth correcting.

Feature, not bug. Fighter / Rogue have a badass-normal as part of their class fantasies.

Micah Sweet said:
Ryu and Ken shoot fireballs. How is that not supernatural? What do I, or anyone else on Earth, need to do to learn how to throw fireballs?

Clearly, you need to practice supernatural martial arts. Or hide a lighter and can of hairspray up your sleeve.

Crimson Longinus · Apr 17, 2024

TwoSix said:
Because as this thread shows, the meaning of "supernatural" is complicated.

For starters, the meaning of "supernatural" depends on your frame of reference. On Earth, throwing a fireball is supernatural. On Street Fighter Earth, if you can train your karate skills to throw a fireball, is it supernatural anymore? Would be it be "supernatural" from the frame of reference of the people on Street Fighter Earth?

This is why I think supernatural makes only sense as an OOC concept. Nothing in a magical world is “supernatural” as magic is natural part of that world!

Yaarel · Apr 17, 2024

Mephista said:
I would not say that at all. The Weave is name for background magical radiation field of the different D&D worlds. Spellcasting works by manipulating that field directly, and magic items tap into it for powering their enchantments.

Dragons, meanwhile, can fly and breath elements through supernatural means, but they do not require the background magic radiation field to do so.

I view Dragon as a feature of nature. They personify every instinctive fear, snake, horns, bird of prey, poison, fire, and similar.

They are moreso Primal, than Arcane.

Dragons are magical − very much so − but like Psionic this is a "natural" kind of magic.

D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

Remathilis

Legend

Minigiant

Legend

Remathilis

Legend

Mephista

Adventurer

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast

Crimson Longinus

Legend

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer

Mephista

Adventurer

Crimson Longinus

Legend

Yaarel

He Mage

Similar Threads