D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Stormonu]

But it isn’t just hit points, it’s combat in general, as a fighter with a longsword shouldn’t be able to pierce the hide of an ancient dragon, much less kill it.

So Bard should have never been able to kill Smaug with an arrow? It may very well have been that the "Black Arrow" was not magical, the chant he used before shooting was magical in some way or that the "missing plate" was a retro explanation by the DM for why it hurt him at all.

 

[TwoSix]

This is why I think supernatural makes only sense as an OOC concept. Nothing in a magical world is “supernatural” as magic is natural part of that world!

Exactly right. "Supernatural" only applies to fiction. If you met a vampire who stalked you at high school in real life, that means vampires aren't supernatural. They're just a natural process we don't understand yet.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because as this thread shows, the meaning of "supernatural" is complicated.

For starters, the meaning of "supernatural" depends on your frame of reference. On Earth, throwing a fireball is supernatural. On Street Fighter Earth, if you can train your karate skills to throw a fireball, is it supernatural anymore? Would be it be "supernatural" from the frame of reference of the people on Street Fighter Earth?

We don't live on Street Fighter Earth. We have to live on this one, and that's our basis for comparison to everything. These terms have to be used in comparison to real life, because that's we've got in common.

 

[Maxperson]

it might be a synonym but there is absolutely not the same subtext/tone, personally i would use 'extraordinary' as a much more natural feeling word, but like, supernatural carries to me strong implications there is an 'additional factor' in what gives them their power, it might not be magic specifically but it implies that a regular person wouldn't be able to do whatever it is they do without some kind of externally sourced facilitator, batman might be extraordinary in what he does but i don't think anyone would call his abilities supernatural.

edit: it's the difference between captain america and spiderman, cap might've had his STR, DEX & CON set at straight 20s but no amount of 'peak human potential' was ever going to give him spidey's wallcrawling or spidersense, extraordinary cap, supernatural spidey.

Extramundane means situated in or relating to a region beyond the material world. It doesn't really fit what @EzekielRaiden is trying to make it fit. If a fighter learns how to swing a sword in such a way that it cuts someone 20 feet from the sword, that isn't in or relating to something beyond the material world. You might be able to say a ghost is extramundane, but not the sword swing. Of course, a ghost is also supernatural.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is why I think supernatural makes only sense as an OOC concept. Nothing in a magical world is “supernatural” as magic is natural part of that world!

Of course its an OOC concept. With this topic you are always talking to the actual, real life players, who are playing the game and choosing what kind of PC they want to make. Their perspective is what matters here. In-universe, it would very likely be completely different, where stuff we see as supernatural is just how the world works. But if you want the player to see it that way, you have to say so, because their reference point is the real world they actually live in.

 

[Minigiant]

I think the issue is more WotC's lack of creativity on their drive to write a simple class. I started in BECMI, love the OSR, But am fine with complex classes. It depends on the game.

It's not creativity.

Their desire to make the fighter and champion subclass simple took priority of making the fighter look like warriors of literature TV and movies.

 

[TwoSix]

We don't live on Street Fighter Earth. We have to live on this one, and that's our basis for comparison to everything. These terms have to be used in comparison to real life, because that's we've got in common.

But they don't "have to" be used that way, because obviously not everyone is using them that way. No one thinks (I hope) that being able to create a shockwave with a sword is a natural thing here on Earth.

They're saying that their conception of fighters is that they live in a world where being able to train yourself to create a shockwave with a sword is something that just happens, and is a distinct phenomenon separate and unrelated to learning how to cast fireballs through study and rituals, or being granted a fireball from a divine entity. It's being able to recognize that the D&D world runs on mythic tropes and ideals and concepts, not on Earth physics.

And it doesn't say that in the books because some people see that viewpoint as entirely obvious (raises hand), and others view it as inherently opposed to how D&D works. So the designers just let people think what they want, because clarifying the issue would just drive some people away.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But they don't "have to" be used that way, because obviously not everyone is using them that way. No one thinks (I hope) that being able to create a shockwave with a sword is a natural thing here on Earth.

They're saying that their conception of fighters is that they live in a world where being able to train yourself to create a shockwave with a sword is something that just happens, and is a distinct phenomenon separate and unrelated to learning how to cast fireballs through study and rituals, or being granted a fireball from a divine entity. It's being able to recognize that the D&D world runs on mythic tropes and ideals and concepts, not on Earth physics.

And it doesn't say that in the books because some people see that viewpoint as entirely obvious (raises hand), and others view it as inherently opposed to how D&D works. So the designers just let people think what they want, because clarifying the issue would just drive some people away.

So again this is just subjective preference.

This why I posited a third category, supernatural, which is stuff you can't do on Earth (so not mundane) but not spells (from whatever source). If you don't like that term for some reason, use a different one, but don't tell me what the game intends if they don't say what they intend.

 

[Maxperson]

The sorcerer is basically 3 character tropes

1. The Non-Muggle. You have the "Spark". For whatever reason, you can cast magic without learning magic theory nor the involvement of a magical master. Because of this you don't understand magic much itself as a thing but have more reserves than other casters.
2. The Superhero. You were bitten by a radioactive spider, struck by supernatural lightning, or hit with magic radiation. You have a suite of powers based around who you got your powers and have finer control over it that people who use study or use the power from others due to your physical closeness to it.
3. The Monster Mage. You are a descendant of a magical creature or have a magical creature's magic in your blood somehow. It lets you use power like that creature. Usually it's spells

These 3 tropes aren't really the same except for 2 things ..

None of those are the class, though. The class = magic inborn and intuitive. What you describe above are just different ways to explain why the inborn magic(the class) is within you. It's like arguing that a fighter is 100 things that aren't the same just because you can learn to be one on your own, from a master, picking up a magic object that transfers memories to you, and on and on.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Going all the way back to its roots, sorcerer is 'wizard that is not a hassle to play' and we're all but assured that we will never get a wizard that's not a hassle to play because the spellbook (the aforementioned hassle) is all anyone cares about the class for. So all the sorcerer needs to justify being a class is not being a hassle to play as a full arcanist.