D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[TwoSix]

So again this is just subjective preference.

This why I posited a third category, supernatural, which is stuff you can't do on Earth (so not mundane) but not spells (from whatever source). If you don't like that term for some reason, use a different one, but don't tell me what the game intends if they don't say what they intend.

Everything is subjective preference, there’s no need for clarification there.

I’m just explaining how my thought process works; if it doesn’t work for you, I’m sure you can find one that does.

 

[Maxperson]

it might be a synonym but there is absolutely not the same subtext/tone, personally i would use 'extraordinary' as a much more natural feeling word, but like, supernatural carries to me strong implications there is an 'additional factor' in what gives them their power, it might not be magic specifically but it implies that a regular person wouldn't be able to do whatever it is they do without some kind of externally sourced facilitator, batman might be extraordinary in what he does but i don't think anyone would call his abilities supernatural.

edit: it's the difference between captain america and spiderman, cap might've had his STR, DEX & CON set at straight 20s but no amount of 'peak human potential' was ever going to give him spidey's wallcrawling or spidersense, extraordinary cap, supernatural spidey.

The Captain America peak human potential thing is bogus. He has enhanced senses that are superior to human. He has a healing factor like Wolverine, but less powerful. He can run and swim faster than the best human athletes. His reaction times are 10x faster than normal humans. He is stronger than any human can achieve. His muscles and bones are denser than a normal human, allowing him to survive falls that would hurt or kill a human. He has greatly increased longevity.

Cap is superhuman, not extraordinary human. He just isn't AS superhuman as spiderman.

 

[Remathilis]

Because a lot of people want to play a badass normal and this way they can for most of the campaign. But some subclasses can get explicitly supernatural earlier.

But it's false advertising. A fighter isn't really a badass normal. He's a normal that slowly becomes less badass as he gains less compared to his supernatural allies. After a while, he's no longer the badass. He might be able to slaughter orcs by hundreds, but that means little when they are fighting legions of flying, teleporting demons.

So you're stuck in the classic conundrum. Your badass normal either breaks the fiction by avoiding a fireball by standing utterly still or he's not normal and he is using supernatural abilities to redirect or avoid the fire. That's your Sophie's Choice.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Because a lot of people want to play a badass normal and this way they can for most of the campaign. But some subclasses can get explicitly supernatural earlier.

I have precisely zero objection to badass normals that are actually badass. But this should be the exception not the rule from about level 6 up. There shouldn't be multiple entire classes dedicated to it, there should be maybe two rogue subclasses, possibly a basically magic-immune fighter, and a monk. And those badasses should be more badass than naughty donkey.

As things stand the non-supernaturals are neither particularly badass (look at the rogue for a class where the mundane subclasses are way behind) nor stand out except through sucking outside their narrow range of expertise.

 

[CreamCloud0]

This is why I think supernatural makes only sense as an OOC concept. Nothing in a magical world is “supernatural” as magic is natural part of that world!

maybe, but by that same measure there still exists very distinct flavours of '''supernatural''' that people can want to play, someone can want to play the fighter who's supernatural in the sense that they can fight dragons and bigger with nothing but strength and steel and no other assistance required.

 

[Remathilis]

This is why I think supernatural makes only sense as an OOC concept. Nothing in a magical world is “supernatural” as magic is natural part of that world!

That's how you get Eberron: magic is natural so magic becomes technology. It's a tool, not something to be feared. (Well, as much as science is feared in our world at least). I don't have a problem with that, but that's NOT the world D&D doesn't sell barring Eberron. The yokels are still in awe of magic. Monsters are rare and scary and live in the shadows. It still tries to look on like the real world rather than a world where impossible things happen before breakfast.

 

[Minigiant]

None of those are the class, though. The class = magic inborn and intuitive. What you describe above are just different ways to explain why the inborn magic(the class) is within you. It's like arguing that a fighter is 100 things that aren't the same just because you can learn to be one on your own, from a master, picking up a magic object that transfers memories to you, and on and on.

That's the lore written in the class section.

Blame WOTC for designing a class that doesn't match the lore THEY wrote

 

[TwoSix]

maybe, but by that same measure there still exists very distinct flavours of '''supernatural''' that people can want to play, someone can want to play the fighter who's supernatural in the sense that they can fight dragons and bigger with nothing but strength and steel and no other assistance required.

Exactly. Beating up a dragon as a human is supernatural. Beating it up by hitting it a lot with a sword is a very different flavor of supernatural than raining down lightning bolts and magic missiles on it.

We're doing a poor job in this thread understanding the levels and degrees of what kinds of supernatural forces exist (which is relevant to the Sorcerer!) by instead focusing on the exact semantics of the word "supernatural".

 

[Maxperson]

Maybe by definition, the word "supernatural" means the Weave.

The Weave emanates from nature but is extra in addition to nature, and can override nature.

Oppositely, Martial, Psionic, and Primal are all intrinsic, innate, and natural, despite the capacity to be magically "extraordinary".

That doesn't really work. Ghosts, gods, other undead, etc. are all supernatural, but don't mean or have association with the weave.

 

[Maxperson]

That's the lore written in the class section.

Blame WOTC for designing a class that doesn't match the lore THEY wrote

No. The lore is what I said. Read it more closely and you will see that the different explanations are just different ways to explain the innate spark of intuitive magic. The sorcerous origin is no different than, "I learned to be a battle master" or "I learned to be a champion" or "I trained to be a samurai from a book that I read." It's background that affects your class via subclass. It's not the class itself.