D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Micah Sweet]

I refuse. Doing so is an unacceptable total concession; it gives you absolutely everything you ask for, while giving me nothing.


Except that as soon as that concession is made, it's a mile, not an inch. Now this "supernatural" thing must be subjected to the rules that bind the supernatural, and it's going to be whined and cried and complained about because "Fighters shouldn't be supernatural, they're FIGHTERS, they should be FIGHTING, not shooting lightning bolts out of their arses!!!" And all the other attendant things that come with this, which serve ever and always to ensure the dominance of magic over nonmagic, of spellcasters over martials, of Wizards over Fighters.

I won't accept that so-called "compromise" anymore.

None of that has happened yet. I honestly think you are overreacting.

All I'm asking for is a change to the class descriptions of fighter and rogue indicating that both classes transition beyond mundane at a certain point in their careers. Its not even mechanical, so it can't possibly be legislated against. Supernatural is a free descriptor used to make the narrative work, not a game term.

 

[Mephista]

I view Dragon as a feature of nature. They personify every instinctive fear, snake, horns, bird of prey, poison, fire, and similar.

They are moreso Primal, than Arcane.

Dragons are magical − very much so − but like Psionic this is a "natural" kind of magic.

I mean... "magic" as a specific term in D&D for things that do tap into the weave, and that includes druids - the iconic Primal spellcaster - for doing their magics. Primal, much like the word magic, kind of has specific connotations now - associated with the Inner Planes, druids, rangers and barbarians. Which dragons do not and are not.

I mean, hells, it even makes sense for dragons to be associated with the inner planes, and everything lorewise, but WotC never took that step, and calling them Primal kind of misleading in this case.

Dragons are creatures of the Material Plane, and they run the gamut from animal-like intelligence to ignominious brutes to highly sophisticated intellectuals that spend their entire lives organizing uber-libraries. Their non-spell abilities that lets them fly and breath flames are magical from the perspective of Earth, but from the perspective of Faerun? Dragon flight and breath are completely normal things.

We don't live on Street Fighter Earth. We have to live on this one, and that's our basis for comparison to everything. These terms have to be used in comparison to real life, because that's we've got in common.

Speak for yourself. I live on World of Darkness Earth. Gotta watch out for those vamps and woofs and willworkers.

But it's false advertising. A fighter isn't really a badass normal.

The class fantasy is just a vibe. A feeling. It doesn't have to be literally true, it just has to feel true to enough people.

Fighters being able to have a core class feature that lets them fly or teleport is against the class fantasy. Its not going to pass muster. The ability to deal magical damage as a feature is not part of the core class fantasy.

Those are all fine as part of the Eldritch Knight fantasy, because EKs are fighter-wizard hybrids, and its part of that fantasy. But not so much the town guard or the retired soldier.

 

[Remathilis]

Or you change the rules so you make them have to actually move to use the ability. Inject some verisimilitude into it.

Versimilitude is the death of a thousand cuts to the badass normal. Injecting versimilitude into the debate means he either no longer badass (he can't do things that aren't in the realm of plausible) or he is no longer normal (he breaks the rules of physics by obvious supernatural means). You can't have it both ways.

I know which I choose. Which will you? (Editorial you, everyone is free to answer).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Versimilitude is the death of a thousand cuts to the badass normal. Injecting versimilitude into the debate means he either no longer badass (he can't do things that aren't in the realm of plausible) or he is no longer normal (he breaks the rules of physics by obvious supernatural means). You can't have it both ways.

I know which I choose. Which will you? (Editorial you, everyone is free to answer).

Badass and implausible are not synonyms. That being said, I'd rather err on the side of normal over badass in the early game at least. To do otherwise damages the class narrative.

 

[Remathilis]

Those are all fine as part of the Eldritch Knight fantasy, because EKs are fighter-wizard hybrids, and its part of that fantasy. But not so much the town guard or the retired soldier.

That's part of the problem. The fighter isn't the town guard or retired soldier any more than the cleric is the village baker or the paladin the local sheriff. Those are all NPCs and no PCs and the fighter suffers for having to be every goon capable of holding a sword. We don't say every tribesman is a barbarian, every preacher a cleric or every hunter a ranger, but we have to make fighters represent everyone who uses weapons and armor.

 

[James Gasik]

To my mind, the iconic version of the "badass normal" "Just That Good" high-level fighter is John Wick.

Nothing he does seems supernatural, but the results are obviously that of a creature of myth and legend.

Except maybe the ocean of blood he manages to keep inside his body.

 

[Mephista]

That's part of the problem. The fighter isn't the town guard or retired soldier any more than

Not every Fighter is a guard or militia, and not every guard or soldier is a Fighter, but certainly quite a number of them are as their background before adventuring begins. Its part of the class fantasy, just being an average guy who learns to use weapons and pushes themselves down that path.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The ability to deal magical damage as a feature is not part of the core class fantasy.

i mean, a feature like the monk's unarmed attack where 'your weapon damage counts as magical for the sake of bypassing resistance' would very much be in line with fighter class fantasy, 'you've mastered using weapons to the degree you have learned to cut that which usually requires magical enhancement'

but i realise that's not what you meant when you say 'magic damage isn't fighter class fantasy', you meant by fireballs and suchlike.

 

[James Gasik]

Ryu and Ken shoot fireballs. How is that not supernatural? What do I, or anyone else on Earth, need to do to learn how to throw fireballs?

Got you covered.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's part of the problem. The fighter isn't the town guard or retired soldier any more than the cleric is the village baker or the paladin the local sheriff. Those are all NPCs and no PCs and the fighter suffers for having to be every goon capable of holding a sword. We don't say every tribesman is a barbarian, every preacher a cleric or every hunter a ranger, but we have to make fighters represent everyone who uses weapons and armor.

But every fighter comes from such a background. PCs aren't just harvested every autumn at the protagonist farm, they have a past. Who says your cleric didn't start as the village baker? A good loaf of fresh-baked bread is certainly a religious experience to me.