worlds and monsters is in my hands

Derren said:

Red Dragon -> Fire Protection -> Easy combat. Now without magic dragons can't even defend themselves against this.

Click to expand...

Previous reviews have both shown that dragons are quite mobile and effective in combat without their breath attack and that blanket immunities are gone.

So casting fire protection in 4e is unlikely to stop a red dragon for very long.

Simon Marks said:

Previous reviews have both shown that dragons are quite mobile and effective in combat without their breath attack and that blanket immunities are gone.

So casting fire protection in 4e is unlikely to stop a red dragon for very long.

Click to expand...

Not to mention that it comes out and says "Red dragons can kill a fire elemental with their breath weapon", so just fire prot spells aren't going to save your bacon.

Rechan said:

With their breath weapon.

Click to expand...

Because poison and frost is so effective in shaping stone...
And even fire will have a hard time to melt stone in a way the dragon wants it (so that the lair itself is defensive and inhibits non dragon creatures). And how does a dragon create traps and magical effects with its breath weapon?
In 3E a lair without alarm spell means a dead dragon when a prepared group of adventurers arrive. I assume in 4E it will be the same, only that dragons don't have a reasonable way anymore to cast this spell. Magical items? How did they get one?

This is where "Making friends, allies and minions" comes in. It makes more sense than expecting the dragon to do everything. It's also harder for the dragon to do all that spying and networking when they sleep for years at a time.

If you want your dragon to do other stuff, add stuff to it. It's a baseline.

Click to expand...

Who said that dragons sleep for years? WotC certainly didn't. Also as I said before when dragons need minions to do everything then the minions are the real encounter, not the dragon. Also it is confirmed that dragons are solo monsters. So by design minions don't fit.

Derren said:

Because poison and frost is so effective in shaping stone...

Click to expand...

We don't know that Green Dragons still don't have acid. Yes, it says they poison you when you get close, but this doesn't mean they spit poison. 3e greens did acid damage. That east through stone.

Lairs of ice = easy to carve through for the white.

And even fire will have a hard time to melt stone in a way the dragon wants it (so that the lair itself is defensive and inhibits non dragon creatures).

Click to expand...

When the Red Dragon can kill a fire elemental with its breath, I think stone is the least of its worries.

Who said that dragons sleep for years? WotC certainly didn't.

Click to expand...

WotC doesn't need to tell me that dragons sleep a long time for me to know it.

Also it is confirmed that dragons are solo monsters. So by design minions don't fit.

Click to expand...

Dragons being a solo monster = when you fight a dragon you fight it alone.

That doesn't mean that there isn't anyone working for the Dragon, being their spies, a wizard who doesn't live with the dragon that sets up the wards, a pack of kobolds that live at the mouth of the dragon's cave, etc etc etc.

In other words, just because the dragon is the boss doesn't mean you won't encounter its minions earlier in the dungeon.

Plane Sailing said:

I'm not sure that I like this approach, since it sounds like it turns monsters into 'cookie cutter' monsters - whereas creatures which can make long term cunning foes deserve a wider array of tactical and strategic abilities.

In my last campaign, Mindflayers maintained some of their traditional abilities which were removed in 3.5 - most especially Astral Projection. So all the mind flayers working in the prime material were actually astrally projecting here from their home plane... kill the body and a week later they are ready to astrally project again and start a new plan, with the advantage of knowing their opponents strengths...

Still, modifying Mindflayers to suit my campaigns will be a trivial thing I'm sure.

The book itself sounds interesting. Evocative even.

Cheers

Click to expand...

Your example is a good one that is indeed easy to add in later. It's not in the rules, but it doesn#t really affect an individual encounter whether the Mind Flayer is astrally projected or not. It's a bit like seeing that the 4E rules might contain rules for slaying gods, and some DMs deciding that it means just slaying his Avatar.

It's an ability that has little effect on the actual game experience whether its there or not, so you can add it if you feel the need.
The advantage can be that DMs feel safer adding abilities to monsters if they make for a good story, and which can keep the players guessing.

Other things are more difficult, but here are a few things to consider:
- Do monsters need Charm Person as a spell? Why can't they just command people by intimidation or sweet talk?
- Do monsters need Telekinesis? Why can't they just use allies for jobs they can't reasonably on their own?

There are probably a lot of other spells that can be replicated by spells or allies. I think it's a good idea that even powerful monsters don't do everything alone (as long as they are smart enough to gather allies, slaves or other tools). Monsters relying on the right enviromnent for them means that they usually will interact more with it, and this alone can give you plot hooks and add complications.

Derren said:

Also please answer me how dragons will be able to shape their lairs and place treps (alarm spells) without magic? How to they ward it against extraplanar intrusion?

Click to expand...

Rituals, the same way wizards create magic items. Much more flavourful to do a ritual to create a barrier than to simply cast wall of force.

Rechan said:

Dragons being a solo monster = when you fight a dragon you fight it alone.

That doesn't mean that there isn't anyone working for the Dragon, being their spies, a wizard who doesn't live with the dragon that sets up the wards, a pack of kobolds that live at the mouth of the dragon's cave, etc etc etc.

In other words, just because the dragon is the boss doesn't mean you won't encounter its minions earlier in the dungeon.

Click to expand...

Dragon: "MINIONS! Adventurers have intruded my lair. Now go away and hide while I fight the adventurers alone."
Minions #1: "But dragon, I have arcane might with outmactches everything those adventurers have. You know that because I always have to cast scry spells for you as you are unable to do so. And Minion #2 who places all the wards around your lair so that you are not completely helpless against your enemies is a devout priest of the dark god. Together with our apprentices and Minion #3 who crafted all traps in your lair we could aid you in the combat.
Dragon: "NO! I am a solo monster. You aiding me in combat would be an unbalanced encounter. Therefor you must leave."
Minions #1: "Very well. (To other minions) Lets go and let this dragon be killed by those well prepared adventurers who all have protected themselves against his element. Its a good thing they don't know that we are the real boss encounter in this lair and not the dragon as together we are much stronger than him. That way we can surprise the adventurers. (To dragon). If you somehow manage to win the fight you are allowed to keep 30% of the loot. And if you die make sure that your corpse block the exit of the lair."
Dragon:" But we agreed on 50%!"
Minion #1: "Don't be silly. Without our magical powers you would be helpless. Or do you think that your little fire tricks would allow you to amass any form of wealth?You would spend your time with raiding caravans for meager profit and threaten small villages. And sooner or later a band of adventurers will enter your unprotected lair, if you even have a lair, and kill you in your sleep. You need us more than we need you."
Dragon:"Ok boss"

That is of course a bit overdramatized but it does capture the problem dragons have when they don't have magic. They are unable to do anything big except looking intimidating and terrorizing small villages. For all other things they need minions which provide the dragon with magical and other powers. And that means that in the end the minions are more dangerous than the dragon.

mhacdebhandia said:

Rituals, the same way wizards create magic items. Much more flavourful to do a ritual to create a barrier than to simply cast wall of force.

Click to expand...

How do you know that dragons can cast rituals? So far it doesn't look like it.

Derren said:

Also please answer me how dragons will be able to shape their lairs...

Click to expand...

Because you as DM can say 'this is what the dragon's lair looks like and here's how its shaped'?

I'm guessing if your PCs are facing off against a dragon the last thing on their mind is "Hmmm, how'd this big, giant, huge, monstrous red dragon gets its lair to look like this?" (i.e., the last thing they may wonder just before the dragon decides to have BBQ Adventurer for dinner)

Derren said:

How do you know that dragons can cast rituals? So far it doesn't look like it.

Click to expand...

Have you seen a dragon writeup? If so, could you point me as to where I might find it, I would be very interested in reading it. Also, If you happen to have access to any info about rituals that the rest of us don't have, please share the wealth, we are all curious.

Based on the info we have access to, there is nothing that says that dragons won't have access to (some) rituals, or to something else, giving it more possibilities than just claw/bite/tail/wing/breath weapon.

However, should it not be the case, I agree with you, that it would give me some issues as to how they would fit in, and survive, in a realistic and logical manner.

Cheers

Derren said:

removing their spellcasting which reduces them to brutes which are unable to affect the outside world except through combat.

Click to expand...

So Lord Dargus, Level 19 Fighter and Leader of the Chaos Hoard in my campaign is not a matermind because he can't cast alarm. My mistake, sorry.

How do they now shape their lair and ward it with traps now when they have no magic? Are all dragons doomed to be killed in their sleep by rogues because they can't cast alarm and teleport blocking spells anymore?

Click to expand...

Big Freaking Claws. I thought they did that now. No wonder I hated 3e dragons before MMV Xorvintaal. More hitpointd than the rogue can dish out in a sneak attack.

D&D is not a world simulator. If you need it to be keep playing 3e. It's TERRIBLE at that job, but makes the pretense of it.