Anyone else find it annoying to figure out skills for NPCs?

Actually, i feel your pain but i don't think its limited to skills.

Recently as part of playtesting i was generating multiple 10th level npcs and 5th level npcs and even a few 15th level npcs and it really struck home again to me the time consuming aspect of generating characters. By the time you take into account the skills by class, feats by class, and figure in at least two sources (assuming you are only using PHb and a single sourcebook) and even assuming NO PRCS, it gets to be quite a bit of work to generate the mechanics and numbers for a single NPC, much less a dozen for a playtest.

I recall in my last DND campaign, by halfway thru i was reusing the earlier adversary stats with a few tweaks up for the most part and by the end in many cases i wasn't really using stats at all, sometimes the "BBEG's sheets" i was consulting were grocery lists, budget notes, and access query code i needed for tomorrow at work.

This is I might add without any detailed "wealth by level" equipment buying and with just a few sketched notes like "chain shirt, shield, axe and bow".

I had a discussion with some of my playtester partners about this and found they too were averaging around an hour or more per character for the 10th level ones from scratch. I use a lot of "generic fighter at level 5" building blocks (once i create them) and it saves a little time but not much.

All in all, if the mechanics and numbers took only 10-20 minutes, that would give me more time for the meaty stuff like concept, contacts, and background details, the nouns to go with the numbers. That would be much preferable.

Aaron2 said:

!?!?!?!? DMs are "shackled" now? Give me a break. Having different rules for players and NPCs only results in confusion and twice as many rules. Witness 1e/2e.

There's a saying among Champions GMs: "Points are for players". Same thing. If you tried to fully point out every NPC in a Fantasy Hero game you would go insane. Clinical tests have proven it.

Click to expand...

I find it interesting that, on one hand, you paint different rules for players and NPCs as "the evil", but, on the other hand, you promote doing exactly this .

I think Mike Mearls meant exactly what many people in this thread suggested: a DM's Guide should provide DMs with guidelines how to build NPCs in a rules-consistent way that does not lose itself in superfluous detail. In D&D 3.x, you have to figure out yourself how to do this.

Turjan said:

. In D&D 3.x, you have to figure out yourself how to do this.

Click to expand...

It took me about 2.5 years. Here's my Quick NPC System, from an original post by Henry:
80% Accurate NPC Creation Rules

I have a system I use that works well for me, regardless of play level. It was written for classed creatures and NPCs, but works also for "unlevelled" critters - at least for me.

DISCLAIMER:

This method will not work well for Major NPCs, and Major Villains. If you want to give certain villains their utmost prowess, you may need to stat them fully. However, this will work for 80% of the “shock troops”, shop keepers, bellhops, stable boys, scullery maids, and senators and mayors your PCs will ever meet.

1. Start with Name, Alignment, Class, Level, and details. Write these down. That’s it. No need to be specific if this is an NPC they won’t be fighting.
1. If you need a specific skill - this is a skill that is actually coming into play; NPC is bargaining with PCs, NPC is repairing armour, etc, then figure if the NPC is just decent, or GOOD at that skill. If decent, assign 1 skill rank per level. If GOOD, assign skill ranks = level +3.
3. Don’t worry about attributes unless needed. If needed, figure which how many scores the NPC is GOOD at, and assign a bonus of +2 (ie a stat score of 14 or 15) for those stats. Everything else, assume average.

'Typical' 16 point buy NPC : 1 GOOD, 5 average.
'Competent' 20 point buy NPC: 2 GOOD, 4 average
'Elite' 24 point buy NPC: 3 GOOD, 3 average

Higher level NPCs may if desired be better than +2 bonus in their single best stat. Note though that a character could advance from 1st to 20th without ever increasing a stat bonus, by raising odd scores to even, so only do this if you want the NPC to stand out as remarkable or present a larger combat threat.
Assuming the stat started at 14, and points are added at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th level, the best-possible stat bonuses are as follows:

Level 1-7: +2
Level 8-15: +3
Level 16-20: +4

The GM can assign stat-enhancing magic items to higher level NPCs if desired.

2. Don’t worry about FEATS until needed in play, combat or otherwise. Feats hide a multitude of sins. Eg if the NPC is a melee brute he probably has Power Attack. High-level Fighters have Weapon Specialisation. Archers may have Rapid Shot. Don't sweat the small stuff.

3. Hit Points.
If combat is needed, assume hit points are slightly above or below average (Level multiplied by half of hit die number; round either up or down). I usually round up for individual NPCs, for groups rounding half up & half down gives some nice variation, and helps prevent players working out exactly how many hp the enemy have!

For D&D PCs:
Hit Die CON bonus HP/level, rounded up.
d6 0 4
d6 +2 6
d8 0 5
d8 +2 7
d10 0 6
d10 +2 8
d12 +2 9

BAB is = level, 3/4ths level, or ½ level, based on class. Armour class is = armour.

4. Saving throws.
Good saves = (Level/2)+2, rounded down.
Poor save = (Level/3), rounded down.
Remember to apply the stat bonus if the save falls under a good (+2) stat score.

6. If NPC is a monster, and you EXPECT to get into combat with them, write down AC, touch AC, speed, Melee and Ranged attack, damage, and hit points. That’s it. Figure out feats and skills JUST like you do for other NPCs.

You will wind up with characters that are only 80% accurate. Will this matter? NO. But you will wind up with generic monsters and PNC's that took you all of 30 seconds to stat, that are playable, and for whom your players won’t be able to tell the difference.

Typical 'Good' (+2) stats (D&D), & Good saves:

Class / Good Stats/ Good Saves
Barbarian STR CON DEX / Fort
Bard CHA DEX INT / Ref Will
Cleric WIS CON STR / Fort Will
Druid WIS CHA DEX / Fort Will
Fighter STR CON DEX / Fort
Monk WIS DEX STR / Fort Ref Will
Paladin STR CHA WIS / Fort
Ranger DEX CON STR / Fort Ref
Rogue DEX INT STR / Ref
Sorcerer CHA DEX CON / Will
Wizard INT DEX CON / Will
Aristocrat CHA WIS STR / Will

francisca said:

I'm pretty well sworn off of DMing 3.5 at this point, for various reasons,

Click to expand...

I'd honestly like to hear them. Might point me to some areas of the game I haven't tweaked yet

Too bad S'mon beat me to the punch, but I would have wanted that as a sig too (but then, also too bad I don't live in South London... oh well).

Anyway, I find this an interesting point. I think I'll make a poll about how DMs handle the detail level of NPCs.

Rav

S'mon said:

It took me about 2.5 years. Here's my Quick NPC System, from an original post by Henry:
80% Accurate NPC Creation Rules

Click to expand...

Very good post. Actually, if I consider how short your post is, it's even more baffling that something like that is not included in the DMG.

Ravellion said:

Too bad S'mon beat me to the punch, but I would have wanted that as a sig too (but then, also too bad I don't live in South London... oh well).

Click to expand...

Heh, well at least you got to experience my awesome GMing at one of my GenConUK games (wasn't it 03 and you were the psycho paladin in the pub brawl?)

GlassJaw said:

No comments on my spreadsheet. :\

Click to expand...

I have not had a chance to look at it yet, bud. . .

Here's the Quick NPC form I use - even this level of detail isn't necessary for all NPCs, but it's handy for minor named characters:

D&D NPC FORM
Name:
Race/gender:
Class/level:
Languages:
Description:
Decent skills (rnk=lvl):
Good skills (rnk=lvl+3):
Good attributes (+2):
Major Feats:
Hit Points (lvl x ½HD +CON):
Combat stats:
BAB: (1x / ¾x / ½x lvl):
Good Saves (Level/2,+2):
Poor Saves (Level/3):
AC (armour):
Speed:
Melee atk&dmg:
Ranged atk& dmg:
Special Equipment (+1/4 levels for best item):

Good deal, S'mon! I believe I'll *yoink* what you *yoinked* from me! And the idea comes full circle!

(BTW, I originally came up with some of those basics when some posters at Dragonsfoot had said that they returned to 1E or 2E because the NPC's took so long to stat up - I reminded them that the shorthand NPC practices they used to pursue in the previous edition DIDN'T have to change...)

nemmerle said:

This kind of goes against the grain of my own philosophy about games and rules. I work very hard to maintain that horizontal consistancy. To me that is called "fairness".

Click to expand...

While you are not looking for solutions, I have one anyways. The number one philosophy should be fun. If griping is fun, than the solution is to gripe and do nothing. If the griping is about unfun stuff, than you might want to change the "fairness" rule. If your not having fun, & dreading the responabilites of proper DM preperation, than the players will notice it, as the "unfun" slowly creeps into the game.

Fainess is fine until you poke an eye out making life not fun.