Thoughts On The Challenge Rating System

boredgremlin · May 22, 2005

I dont know. Its full of some odd paradoxes. Like a party with a level 20 fighter, ranger, wizard and cleric is a level 20 party. A single level 20 fighter is a CR 20 encounter. So that one level 20 character is supposed to use up 20% of the other parties resources? Not likely.
Lol or this one. A party of 4 20th level characters is an EL 20. But if they fought against another party of 2 20th level characters it would be a CR of 23, i think. Which makes it a very difficult encounter. Now the description makes sense with what would probably happen. But it just sounds wierd that a 20th level party fighting itself would get the EXP from a CR 23. Lol all these acronyms are giving my flashbacks to being in the army. Ugh.

Shin Okada · May 22, 2005

boredgremlin said:
I dont know. Its full of some odd paradoxes. Like a party with a level 20 fighter, ranger, wizard and cleric is a level 20 party. A single level 20 fighter is a CR 20 encounter. So that one level 20 character is supposed to use up 20% of the other parties resources? Not likely.

2 things,

1. It depends. Type and situation of encounters vary. A 20th-level fighter will be killed before engagement if spotted at 300 ft. away. But that guy is unlikely to be walking alone in the middle of plain. He is experienced well and knows his strength and weakness. So likely to be in a situation which he can fight well. If encountered in a close quarter, a 20th-level fighter may inflict significant damage to a PC of equal level in a single round. He may not kill one. But the party will spend some highest-level spell or two to kill him, and some other healing spell to cure injured member.

2. Most monsters are assumed to be appear alone or as a group of same kind of creatures. Typical NPCs are assumed to be forming tactically efficient band (like PC parties). A 20th-level party composed of a fighter type, an arcane caster, a cleric type, and a rogue type surely worth Encounter level of 24, right?

Lol or this one. A party of 4 20th level characters is an EL 20. But if they fought against another party of 2 20th level characters it would be a CR of 23, i think. Which makes it a very difficult encounter. Now the description makes sense with what would probably happen. But it just sounds wierd that a 20th level party fighting itself would get the EXP from a CR 23. Lol all these acronyms are giving my flashbacks to being in the army. Ugh.

A party of four 20th-level characters is Effective Level of 20. And another party of two 20th-level characters is Encounter Level of 22 (not CR, nor 23). And those 20th-level PCs do not get experience points from CR 23. They gain EXP from two CR 20 creatures (divided by 4). What is wrong?

Ogrork the Mighty · May 22, 2005

boredgremlin said:
That thing would beat down the 20th level fighter in around 3 or 4 rounds. He has no chance at all.

Not if that fighter is an archer...

styker · May 22, 2005

The problem is: Who is more difficult to defeat? 2 balors or 2 pit fiends or 2 dragons of CR 20 or 2 tarrasques (let's supose that exist this) or a wizard 20 and a fighter 20 together... all thesse creatures give the same amount of xp but normal a wizard and a fighter alone will never defeat other of these creatures (just a overpowered wizard and fighter...)... so in my campaign if the enemy isn't waiting the pcs, with traps and a lot of things to balance the encounter, just the enemy i give his XP/2 in XP, same think when i do a dragon with draconomicon feats, treasure and all the strategy, i give more XP than normal...

S'mon · May 22, 2005

Sometimes too high, sometimes too low. *shrug* A CR 5 troll can easily mincemeat 5th level PCs. A CR 9 frost giant may be no challenge to 9th level PCs. It depends a lot on the group. Generally, the Monster Manual sets melee brute CRs too low for my liking, and spellcaster-monster CRs too high.

Darkness · May 22, 2005

S'mon said:
A CR 5 troll can easily mincemeat 5th level PCs.

OTOH, I've seen a 1st-level Rogue kill a troll all by herself.

Although the fact that I was using a fumble system at the time and was constantly rolling 1s for the troll's attacks certainly was a factor.

S'mon · May 22, 2005

NPC CRs are, I calculated, about 1/5 too high on average - best result is to take the NPC class level, multiply by 4/5, and round up - so Ftr-4 is CR-4, but so is Ftr-5. Tweak where necessary, eg a Wiz-5 w Fireball is a good CR 5.

Your 6th-7th level party shouldn't be breaking the CR system yet IMO, most problems arise over 10th level. I'd say treat them as 7th - EL 7 is 2 trolls, a hill giant, a troll + 2 ogres... unless the party gets the drop on them & can buff pre-fight, such encounters are extremely dangerous IME. You may want to lower CRs for spellcasters monsters, eg I lowered the 3.0 Succubus from CR 9 to CR 6, which fits better with her capabilities. For NPCs, using the 4/5 rule a single 8th level NPC is CR 7 but you'll find that not much of a challenge unless it's an ambush by a wizard, use 3 5th level/CR 4 NPCs of multiple classes & you'll get a good fight. Even better, 2 5th level NPCs plus a huge bunch of CR 1/2 orcs with greataxes...

moritheil · May 22, 2005

I spanked an EL 4 party left and right with a CR 3 crysmal. Watch out for those at-will powers.

On the other hand, today (at a higher EL) they defeated a CR 4 jann in under half a round of combat, but got their butts handed to them by a CR 5 elemental.

Crothian · May 22, 2005

Darkness said:
OTOH, I've seen a 1st-level Rogue kill a troll all by herself.

Our second level party took out a troll, not that tough.....

Philip · May 22, 2005

Tactics of the party: -2 to +2 CR
Tactics of the monster(s): -2 to +2 CR
Build of the character (min-maxed or poorly build): -1 to +1 CR
Composition of the party: -2 to +2 CR

Thus a 9th lvl party of 4 poorly built characters using poor tactics going against a CR 9 monster that uses excellent tactics, and also having a party composition that is poor against that particular monster, the encounter might reslove as a CR 16 encounter, thus causing a TPK.

You should always consider these factors when staging encounters.

A Mind Flayer may be only CR 8, but against a party of poorly built low will save characters sich as Fighters and Barbarians of 8th lvl, using levitate to stay out of the party's reach and the party bunching up will TPK the party without breaking a sweat.

If the same Mind Flayer goes up against a min-maxed party of four Clerics and wades into melee combat, he will be killed without the party breaking a sweat.

CR's are not absolutes.

Thoughts On The Challenge Rating System

boredgremlin

Banned

Shin Okada

Explorer

Ogrork the Mighty

Explorer

styker

First Post

S'mon

Legend

Darkness

Hand and Eye of Piratecat [Moderator]

S'mon

Legend

moritheil

First Post

Crothian

First Post

Philip

Explorer

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