D&D General 0 HP Magic Missile = Death?

[Oofta]

No, it is a spell that makes no attacks. It just deals damage.

And if you target one creature, they all hit at the same time.

Allowing MM to count as separate sources of damage would be like ruling a creature that falls takes more than one source of damage. Afterall, first its arm hits, then its head, then back, then legs. Obviously it is very likely that creature will suffer multiple sources of injury. But for the game, it is treated as one source of damage.

There are many situations where a PC is going to automatically take damage, it's irrelevant to the rules. As it says in the PHB "Damage at 0 Hit Points. If you take any damage while you have 0 hit points, you suffer a death saving throw failure." There's no differentiation that it must come from different sources or any other qualification. The magic missile spell can hit 1 creature or 3, each missile does their own damage.

If you want to run your game that way or simply don't want to auto-kill a PC that's fine. But it's not what the rules of the game state.

 

[Cadence]

@Reynard

Crawford apparently rules them separate sources of damage in regards to concentration.

Would striking someone at 0 hit points with an entire Magic Missile spell automatically kill them?

Assuming the target is able to be hit and does not have immunity to force damage, would firing all three missiles at a target with 0 hit points inflict three guaranteed death saves ergo death? M...

rpg.stackexchange.com

(Of course there are other rulings of his I am happy to ignore).

 

[ezo]

but RAW does not make that clear.

How is it not clear? It says right in the spell description the missiles strike simultaneously against a single target.

There are many situations where a PC is going to automatically take damage, it's irrelevant to the rules.

Did I imply it was relevant?

As it says in the PHB "Damage at 0 Hit Points. If you take any damage while you have 0 hit points, you suffer a death saving throw failure." There's no differentiation that it must come from different sources or any other qualification. The magic missile spell can hit 1 creature or 3, each missile does their own damage.

Sure, and there is no qualification that it has to come from each instance, either. It just says if you take damage, you get a failed death save. It doesn't specify whether that is every time you take damage, if you take damage during the round before the start of your turn (when you roll for your death saves), or just if you take ANY damage at all (and you don't take more than one failed death save, regardless of the number of times you take damage).

Welcome to the "rulings not rules" of 5E. Where have you been? ;-)

If you want to run your game that way or simply don't want to auto-kill a PC that's fine. But it's not what the rules of the game state.

And what you are advocating isn't what the "rules of the game state" either. If you want to run your game that way, your choice as well.

 

[Reynard]

How is it not clear? It says right in the spell description the missiles strike simultaneously against a single target.

If we are going to debate, let's not cherry pick. The spell description says

"You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several."

The bolded parts strongly suggest that the damage is individual. "Simultaneous" doesn't actually have any implication regarding whether the damage is singular or multiple instances, just that they happen at the same time.

 

[Cadence]

How is it not clear? It says right in the spell description the missiles strike simultaneously against a single target.


Did I imply it was relevant?


Sure, and there is no qualification that it has to come from each instance, either. It just says if you take damage, you get a failed death save. It doesn't specify whether that is every time you take damage, if you take damage during the round before the start of your turn (when you roll for your death saves), or just if you take ANY damage at all (and you don't take more than one failed death save, regardless of the number of times you take damage).

Welcome to the "rulings not rules" of 5E. Where have you been? ;-)


And what you are advocating isn't what the "rules of the game state" either. If you want to run your game that way, your choice as well.

If someone wanted to invent "Delayed Blast Magic Missile", that is just like normal magic missile except that the missiles fire off in order a nanosecond apart and not simultabeously, what level would you make that? If higher than 1st would you up the damage? What if they only wanted them to do 1hp each and stay first level?

 

[Cadence]

In which I am now disappointed 5e Insect Plague isn't written analogously (but obviously mich weaker damage wise) to 1e Creeping Doom.

 

[Oofta]

How is it not clear? It says right in the spell description the missiles strike simultaneously against a single target.


Did I imply it was relevant?


Sure, and there is no qualification that it has to come from each instance, either. It just says if you take damage, you get a failed death save. It doesn't specify whether that is every time you take damage, if you take damage during the round before the start of your turn (when you roll for your death saves), or just if you take ANY damage at all (and you don't take more than one failed death save, regardless of the number of times you take damage).

Welcome to the "rulings not rules" of 5E. Where have you been? ;-)


And what you are advocating isn't what the "rules of the game state" either. If you want to run your game that way, your choice as well.

You still take damage 3 times, not once. Feel free to change the rules however you want of course. Personally I just wouldn't use MM against a dying PC to kill them off if it's not what the group wants out of the game.

 

[ezo]

If we are going to debate, let's not cherry pick. The spell description says

"You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several."

The bolded parts strongly suggest that the damage is individual. "Simultaneous" doesn't actually have any implication regarding whether the damage is singular or multiple instances, just that they happen at the same time.

Well, I wasn't cherry picking as you seem to think, I was only pointing out that, even though each dart deals damage, it all hits at the same time. That was my point. Like my falling example. If you fall you will very likely suffer multiple injuries, even if minor, which would all be damage. But the game groups it all into one total.

Do you tell a player hit by multiple magic missiles the damage they take from each separate missile, or just tell them the total?

For example: a PC has 8 hp left and is hit by all three missiles (which we know strike simulatenously). You roll damage and get 3, 5, 2 total. If you say the 3 and 5 are applied first, reducing the PC to 0 hp, the last 2 would be an auto fail death save. But what if you told them the damage was 3, 2, and then 5? Well, now they are still at 0 hp, but no auto fail death save.

If you roll the damage "in order" and tell them each individual damage, you are then forcing a random order on something that happens simultaneously. After all, with those damage rolls, only saying the 3 and 5 (or 5 and 3) would result in a failed death save. Starting with the 3,2 or 2,3 or the 5,2 or 2,5 combinations would NOT result in a failed death save.

So, random chance of how you told them the damage results in just a 1/3 chance of a failed death save in this case.

Which, IMO, you shouldn't do. You give them the total because all the damage takes place at the same time. The PC takes 10. No failed death save.

If someone wanted to invent "Delayed Blast Magic Missile", that is just like normal magic missile except that the missiles fire off in order a nanosecond apart and not simultabeously, what level would you make that? If higher than 1st would you up the damage? What if they only wanted them to do 1hp each and stay first level?

The game doesn't function in time like that, so I would tell the player not to be silly and stop "working the game".

You still take damage 3 times, not once. Feel free to change the rules however you want of course. Personally I just wouldn't use MM against a dying PC to kill them off if it's not what the group wants out of the game.

No, you take damage ONCE because it all happens at the same time. (See my above point.)

 

[Cadence]

Sisu Feat. You may add your will or con bonus to death saves rolls Simultaneous damage such as magic missile counts as one attack. You do not automatically die from massive damage such as a plane crash straight down at full speed.

 

[Cadence]

Well, I wasn't cherry picking as you seem to think, I was only pointing out that, even though each dart deals damage, it all hits at the same time. That was my point. Like my falling example. If you fall you will very likely suffer multiple injuries, even if minor, which would all be damage. But the game groups it all into one total.

Do you tell a player hit by multiple magic missiles the damage they take from each separate missile, or just tell them the total?

For example: a PC has 8 hp left and is hit by all three missiles (which we know strike simulatenously). You roll damage and get 3, 5, 2 total. If you say the 3 and 5 are applied first, reducing the PC to 0 hp, the last 2 would be an auto fail death save. But what if you told them the damage was 3, 2, and then 5? Well, now they are still at 0 hp, but no auto fail death save.

If you roll the damage "in order" and tell them each individual damage, you are then forcing a random order on something that happens simultaneously. After all, with those damage rolls, only saying the 3 and 5 (or 5 and 3) would result in a failed death save. Starting with the 3,2 or 2,3 or the 5,2 or 2,5 combinations would NOT result in a failed death save.

So, random chance of how you told them the damage results in just a 1/3 chance of a failed death save in this case.

Which, IMO, you shouldn't do. You give them the total because all the damage takes place at the same time. The PC takes 10. No failed death save.


The game doesn't function in time like that, so I would tell the player not to be silly and stop "working the game".


No, you take damage ONCE because it all happens at the same time. (See my above point.)

If you fire three arrows per round do they all hit simultaneously?