D&D 2E 2e AD&D PHB Balance

Orius

Legend
I think the changes to bring balance to 2nd edition were collectively called "3rd edition".

3e changed 2e by making things more consistent . More balanced, well that definitely didn't go as planned.

Curious due to comments upthread: did Paladins get their combat matrix slowed down in 2e? In 1e it's the same as the Fighter, if memory serves; and post-UA Paladins had weapons of choice a la Cavaliers, which was an OK substitute for spec. What made them so inferior to Fighters in combat?
Combat matrix? This is 2e, we use THAC0 here!

In any case, all warriors have the same THAC0 table, their attack rolls improve by 1 every level. In core this is fighter, paladin and ranger. Paladins are about the same as fighters in combat, except that fighters get weapon specialization. If the Player's Option rules are in play, other warriors might get weapon spec if the DM allows it while fighters can improve it with weapon mastery.

I've toyed with the idea of adjusting ability scores in 2e before. The main problem with AD&D scores is that Gary added bonuses in a semi-linear fashion starting with 15s. Then he says PCs should have high enough scores to get bonuses, at least a 15. This eventually led to the insanity of UA's buckets o' dice that was Method V and suggestions in the 2e DMG that were probably a reaction against that. Instead of jacking up ability scores themselves, I think switching to a different set of tables might be a better approach. First, there's the ability score bonuses of the classic D&D game introduced in Moldvay's Basic set. That puts bonuses on a bell curve from 13 to 18, and they consistently apply to all scores. The other option would be to go with the modern approach first used in 3e which have the ability score bonuses increasing at a linear rate starting at 12, and which are also consistently applied. In either case, the ability score bonuses don't require ridiculously high scores. They also don't have the complex tables of 2e, and it dumps Exceptional Strength.

There are few things to tweak. D&D's system only goes from 3-18. The modern system could be overpowered, but 5e does use a powered down version of it. I'd probably throw out the 2e encumbrance table because it has Exceptional Strength built into it. So instead, one could ignore encumbrance altogether, it's optional in 2e, use D&D's system, but that isn't based on Strength, and it needs to be divided by 10, use 3e's table, or 5e's simplified approach.

My house rules go something like this:

Races don't really need a lot of change. Advance as normal to the level limit, then require double XP afterwards. The level limit can be increased with higher Prime Requisite scores as listed on Table 8 in the DMG, (I could probably use the standard bonus for the lowest Prime Requisite score is added to the max instead). Races can take any class, but any non-listed class in the DMG has a base level limit of 4. Dwarf wizards who specialize as an earth elementalist or artificer have a base level limit of 12 instead. Non-core races follow the same rules.

Humans get one bonus ability chosen by the player during character creation: +5% bonus to earned XP cumulative with any Prime Requisite bonus, +1 hp/level, extra proficiencies, a +1 to hit with any single weapon, or a +1 to the ability score of their choice.

Classes also stay mostly the same.

Warrior attacks per round get changed to an easier to use 2 attacks at level 7 and 3 attacks at 13, modified by specialization.
No changes to fighters.
Paladins get the Sphere of Law.
Rangers get the Sphere of Travelers, get alignment restrictions removed, and get an expanded list of enemies based on a chosen home range.
Wizards get little change, but specialists choose their opposition schools and the different schools are weighted according to relative power, so a diviner can give up fewer schools, while a transmuter will have to make a bigger sacrifice.
Clerics get the Sphere of Wards and either Law or Chaos depending on alignment, neutral clerics get one based on their god's alignment, player's choice for neutral clerics of neutral gods.
Druids get Time and Travelers Spheres, 3e alignments, and that level advancement nonsense is dropped.
Thieves have the vague backstab get replaced with Sneak Attack. Either have it work like 3e on flanking or flat-footed opponents or do 5e Sneak Attack on advantage. Also let thieves choose from the extra skills from Skills and Powers, starting with 8 skills at level one and letting them add new ones eventually as they level.
Bards I'd probably adjust the spell selection, starting with the School of Song from Spells and Magic and maybe stuff from their 3e and 5e spell lists. I'd also switch to their 1e XP table as printed in the Bard's Handbook.

Multi- and dual-class characters would use a system in between 2e's and 3e's multiclassing. Humans cannot start as a multi-class character, non-humans can start with any allowed combination. A single class character can add a second class if they're at least level two. Demihumans and humanoids can only take the normal multiclass combinations. Humans can choose to multiclass as long the two classes are not from the same class group. There are no ability score requirements except for the classes' base requirements, but alignment restrictions must be followed. Human and half-elf characters can add a third class once both their classes are at least level two, half-elves only get the two triple class combos from the PHB, while humans can combine any three classes that are not from the same class group. The normal rules for multiclassing are followed: best THAC0 and saves from the classes, experience divided equally between the classes, hp rolls divided by the number of classes, clerics must follow weapon restrictions, wizards must follow armor restrictions and druids must follow both.

Proficiencies use the Skills and Powers system, but with the numbers flipped so high rolls are good. I think I'll add the idea of DCs from 3e here too. Kits will also follow the Skills and Powers baseline, with the more unique PHBR kits tweaked to fit.

If I bother with psionics, I like the Skills and Powers system better, but it requires the errata from Dragon Annual 2 to work right.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Staffan

Legend
Druids get Time and Travelers Spheres, 3e alignments, and that level advancement nonsense is dropped.
A slight warning about this one: the druid XP table is designed around "that level advancement nonsense".

At first look, it seems like druids have a harsher XP table than clerics, and for the first few levels it's true. But after a few levels, they absolutely rocket up the levels – I don't have the books here to check, but I think it's at about level 5 through 10 where a druid needs fewer XP than even a rogue. Then it slows down until level 14 or 15, which is pretty fast (because that's the Grand Druid level), and once they reach Hierophant status it's a slog.

Faiths & Avatars made the mistake of giving the souped-up specialty priests in that book their own XP table which was essentially the druid table but instead of resetting XP to 0 when becoming a hierophant they just added those on top. As a result, they zoomed through the mid-levels. Later (I think in Demihuman Deities) they gave them a revised XP table that was basically the cleric XP table +33% (so 2000 at level 2 instead of 1500, just like the druid). That's the one I'd use for a druid without the "level advancement nonsense."
 

Orius

Legend
Ah good tip. Yeah, I'm not a fan of the druids fighting for the higher levels or the idea that there's just one big druid organization in the world. That's what I want to dump. I know the XP is a bit wonky, but some of that goes back to 1e's leveling habits. It's basically 75% of a PC's XP is supposed to come from treasure, but the amount needed ends up being mountains of gold. Or magic items which have their balance issues if overused. So to get rid of all that gold, it gets dumped into training until name level when you get a castle and an army to spend all that gold on.

'Course 2e messed that up too. Sure there's XP for treasure and training to drain off all the cash, but the training rules drop the name level bit, so you still got to find a higher level NPC to train under. I guess they really thought the players enjoyed having Elminster loom over them all the time, huh? At least that stuff is optional.
 

cavetroll

Explorer
I found core 2e to be quite balanced due to carefully selected magic items providing what the classes were otherwise missing and getting everyone on roughly the same power level.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Yes, you can adjust for a wide disparity in power with magic items; an intelligent magic sword was intended to be a balancing factor for Fighters vs. magic types at higher levels. Only a few items really make casters better at what they're doing, and most either grant utility or shore up their weak points, while just about anything makes a non-magic guy better.

This has been true in every version of the game (and is still true in 5e, but don't tell the 5e players- they have this idea that magic items are optional and the game runs just fine without them. It doesn't take long to peruse any forum before you see caster/martial imbalance threads that go on for dozens of pages, and this point is rarely, if ever broached).

D&D is a game about challenging the odds to get cool swag. That swag is integral to the game's balance. Unfortunately, many DM's don't get that, and thus you get Monty Haul DM's, Scrooge DM's, and DM's who solely rely on randomly generated items.

Then, you look at published adventures, who often have not only large amounts of weaker magic items, but the majority are things players want; rings and cloaks of protection, commonly used magic weapons and armor, potions, scrolls and wands. Rare is the published module that is like "hey, you killed the evil Duke, in his hoard you find...a folding boat, a Bohemian Ear-Spoon +2, Ring Mail +1, and Bracers of Brachiation!"
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
D&D is a game about challenging the odds to get cool swag. That swag is integral to the game's balance. Unfortunately, many DM's don't get that, and thus you get Monty Haul DM's, Scrooge DM's, and DM's who solely rely on randomly generated items.
Random often makes more sense than tailored, however, particularly if you don't know which group of PCs will be in a given adventure.
Then, you look at published adventures, who often have not only large amounts of weaker magic items, but the majority are things players want; rings and cloaks of protection, commonly used magic weapons and armor, potions, scrolls and wands. Rare is the published module that is like "hey, you killed the evil Duke, in his hoard you find...a folding boat, a Bohemian Ear-Spoon +2, Ring Mail +1, and Bracers of Brachiation!"
Those are exactly the sort of things I'd expect to find in the Duke's hoard - things he wouldn't use on a day-to-day basis and-or doesn't want to advertise that he owns.

The folding boat gets secretly pulled out when he wants to row across the river to visit his mistress. The ring mail is his ceremonial armour, only worn on special stately occasions. The ear-spoon is a supposedly-secret tithe/gift/bribe from a lower-ranking noble that he hasn't got around to selling just yet. The bracers are an emergency escape mechanism: if his castle gets attacked and he has time to escape he dons the bracers, goes out an upper-floor window, and uses them to swing through the courtyard trees and then over the wall.

Meanwhile his worn-at-all-times gear includes a Ring of Protection +2, a Headband of Scry-Shielding, and - when awake and in the company of others - Clothing Armour (clothes that become plate armour on mental command) and a "ceremonial knife" that is actually a Dagger of Shapeshifter Slaying.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Well that may be true, but the fact is, that loot isn't the sort of thing that player characters tend to need/desire, which again, is why published adventures always seem chock full of that stuff. The neat, interesting, but often niche items are generally left for the DM to add to the game.

And this isn't a denouncement of those kinds of treasures- I have a Paladin whose very first item was a Helm of Underwater Action, and it has been amazingly useful. My characters always tend to stuff their packs with odd utility items that my peers don't bother with, because you never know when a Quaal's Feather Token to conjure a tree or a swan boat might come in handy.

But if we're talking about how magic items can balance characters, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Bracers of Armor, and Pearls of Power can correct a lot of problems in a group. Especially in high level play, where a Fighter may not have answers to a problem at hand- but his intelligent sword that can teleport 3/day might!
 

bulletmeat

Adventurer
In my old 2e game I had a wand of summon hamster. Twice a day I could summon a hamster. The DM thought it was hilarious.
But then I started to get rid of traps (10' pole my butt), or tie a long oil soaked string on it and send it through enemy bases/camps while lit on fire. That f****** wand was awesome.
DM broke it on me during a fight w/a White Dragon because I was messing w/his minions.
The jerk.
 


Enrico Poli1

Adventurer
After the wisdom from all of the editions thru the years…. What changes should have been made for better race and class balance in the PHB?

Remove dual classing from the game? Let humans multiclass?

Remove level limits but give humans something else (+1 to 3 different stats???)?

Give paladins and rangers weapon spec?

Give thieves sneak attack with melee weapons instead of backstab?

Give non warriors a chance to hit at high level?

More spells for low level casters?

Other suggestions? I just started playing bg:ee and iwd:ee so I’ve been play testing some of those (disabled kits except specialty priests and disabled 3e/new classes).

I’ve never found a way to do bards that I like thru the editions….
AD&D2e is not a balanced game. Still, it's beautiful
 

Remove ads

Top