• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

2h weapon imbalance?

Ahrimon

Bourbon and Dice
Does the greataxe strike anyone else as being the superior 2h weapon of choice?

The greatsword has one more to hit over the maul and greataxe, but the maul and greataxe have slightly better damage than the greatsword. I think all this ballances out. But on top of it all the greataxe gets to be a high crit weapon.

They must put a lot of emphasis on that +1 to hit I guess.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Mort_Q

First Post
You also need to look at feat and power choices that give benefits to the various weapon types.

Nothing is equal, yet nothing is unbalanced.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Yes, attack bonuses are highly valued in 4e.

The Greatsword isn't such a nifty choice as it used to be. For one thing, the bastard sword equals it as a two-handed weapon (actually, bests it slightly), and is useable one-handed, as well.
 

Ahrimon

Bourbon and Dice
Taking a second look, I think they do indeed give a greater importance to that +1 to hit. It is something that's very rare in 4e.

Using the lowest baseline for the weapons: +2 hit, d10 damage and no specials, you can see that each weapon gets:
Greatsword: +1 hit
Greataxe: +1 damage step*, special
Maul: +2 damage steps*

* Page 220 PHB.
 

Kaelkatar

First Post
The +3 to attack is important for characters that do more than just damage, sometimes getting that extra 5% to hit with an ability that will cripple a dragon for a turn is much more important than hitting 5% less for on average 4-6 more damage. Also

Mauls/Heavy Flails are dealing 7 on average for every [W] where as Greataxes are dealing 6.5. In the heroic tier, Greataxes getting an extra 6.5 damage on average 1 out of 20 rolls. If you apply that damage over 20 rolls, you only get on average .325 damage. (This increases to .65 at paragon and .975 at epic)

On normal attacks at Epic tier the high crit property catches up, making an average 2[w] attack deal 7+7=14 damage on a maul and 6.5+6.5+.975 = 13.975 damage on a greataxe, almost identical. When an attack with more than 2[W] is used, the average damage shifts even more in favor of the maul.

Other factors include the maul dealing more consistant damage, often between 4 and 10 instead of the axe which is constant from 1 to 12. This means when you do crit, there is less of a chance that you would have rolled maximum damage dice anyways, thus shifting average damage more towards the maul. In addition one of the axe-centric feats, gives the axe user the ability to treate greataxes as if they had high crit, a useless stat. The simelar maul or flail masteries actually add bonuses.

Thus, in a purely statistical perspective, greataxes are actually inferior. Not by much, and in practice there may be instances where an axe is superior. Still, if I was a greatweapon fighter or paladin, I would take either greatsword or maul/flail, not the axe.
 

Kingbreaker

First Post
Yes, attack bonuses are highly valued in 4e.

The Greatsword isn't such a nifty choice as it used to be. For one thing, the bastard sword equals it as a two-handed weapon (actually, bests it slightly), and is useable one-handed, as well.


IMO bastard sword is kinda broken. . . at the cost of 1/18 of total feats, you get to use a shield AND/OR more damage. Only an extremely feat-starved or thematic character would choose Greatsword.

Not to be a complete dork, but historically speaking, "bastard swords" were used after shields had mostly gone out of favor, when plate mail became pretty sophisticated.
 

Mort_Q

First Post
IMO bastard sword is kinda broken. . . at the cost of 1/18 of total feats, you get to use a shield AND/OR more damage. Only an extremely feat-starved or thematic character would choose Greatsword.

It does, on average, one more point of damage per die than a Longsword.

That's about what a feat is worth.

The Bastard Sword is not broken.

The Great Sword is just underpowered.
 

Kaelkatar

First Post
A bit of math slip up, the 6.5 average damage from the high crit property should be divided by the hit chance, and not 20, so in a 50/50 hit scenario, the crit chance is doubled from the number I posted, this would put the high crit greataxe above the maul in average damage in all three tier, expecially the paragon tier. In situations where you are dealing weapon damage through powers where the number of Ws is 2+ in the heroic, 3+ in the paragon, or 4+ in the epic, the maul would still win out.

This pattern may not hold true for situations where you only have a 35% chance to hit, and holds even truer for situations where you have an 85% to hit. The other arguments against the axe are still valid at all hit chances.
 

Xorn

First Post
In before the bastard sword gets mentio--oh, uh... nevermind.

And the Bastard Sword is *not* a two-hand weapon, it's versatile. So the Greatsword (and other Two-Handed Weapons do better with Power Attack).

To me, that means if you use a bastard sword with a shield, you paid a feat for +1 damage step.

If you use it without a shield, you paid a feat for +1 untyped damage bonus, and don't get the stronger Power Attack.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
It does, on average, one more point of damage per die than a Longsword.

That's about what a feat is worth.

The Bastard Sword is not broken.

The Great Sword is just underpowered.

The bastard sword does one more point of damage per die than a greatsword when used two-handed. Which is about what a feat is worth.

The problem is that right now characters are starved for good feats to select, so taking the bastard sword feat becomes a given.
 

Remove ads

Top