[3.0] Charge and Partial Action

[Caliban]

Shall we all now bow at your feet, and proclaim our undying thansk for your pronouncement-from-on-high?

That would be acceptable.

 

[hong]

Caliban's messageboard-fu is strong. I bow before the great Caliban.

 

[Storm Raven]

If someone could point out in the rulebooks how it states that you CAN'T use a hasted partial action to move, then charge, while simultaneously supporting the ruling that lions CAN pounce at the end of the charge, I'm all ears.

The pounce rules specifically state that they vary the rules for a charge.

The haste rules don't.

It's pretty simple. You just don't like the result of reading the rules.

 

[Artoomis]

The pounce rules specifically state that they vary the rules for a charge.

The haste rules don't.

It's pretty simple. You just don't like the result of reading the rules.

First, I'll point out again that this is all academic, and that, for this discussion, we are NOT including the FAQ, but discussing 3.0 as presented in the PHB. This discussion is really mere entertainment and of little, if any, actual game value. Still, I enjoy this sort of debate.

Second, I'll point out that, as I demonstrated in my opening post, the result of reading the rules as presented in the 3.0 PHB is that the Charge movement restriction applies during the Charge action only.

The extra partial action from Haste, for example, is totally unrelated to charging or any other action unless that action restricts something FOR THE ROUND, like a 5-foot step does. The Charge action does restricts all movement, but, in only in the context of the Charge action and does not specify "all movement in the round" which would include any extra actions you might get somehow.

Thus the rules, as written and strictly interpreted, allow for an extra partial action's movement to be completely unrelated to a Charge action.

 

[Storm Raven]

Second, I'll point out that, as I demonstrated in my opening post, the result of reading the rules as presented in the 3.0 PHB is that the Charge movement restriction applies during the Charge action only.

No, they don't. This is where you go wrong. The Charge description says all movement. Not "all movement during your charge", but rather "all movement".

Hence, it means "all movement". Not "some of your movement", "your movement during the charge", or "movement Artoomis would like to count".

"All movement".

End of discussion.

 

[AuraSeer]

::YAWN:: This stupid argument again?

One side says: "The rules in the PH obviously state blah."
The other side says: "Wrong, the rules in the PH obviously state the exact opposite."

Since people disagree on what the rules say, the PH by itself is insufficient evidence for any position. The sentence in question can support either side equally well, which is the same as not supporting either side at all.

If we take that vague PH passage out of consideration, then one side of this argument is supported only by the FAQ. The other side is supported by nothing at all.

It's quite clear to me which argument is more compelling. I don't see why people bother to yell so much about this (unless it ruins a pet tactic or something).

 

[Artoomis]

No, they don't. This is where you go wrong. The Charge description says all movement. Not "all movement during your charge", but rather "all movement".

Hence, it means "all movement". Not "some of your movement", "your movement during the charge", or "movement Artoomis would like to count".

"All movement".

End of discussion. [/B]

Not end of discussion. ALL movement, if it truly meant "ALL," would include all movement in your entire life. Or perhaps that day. Or that comabt. Or that round. Or during the Charge action. All equally valid if you fosu ONLY on the words "ALL MOVEMENT" wihout regard to context.

Let's look at the actual text.

...The character must move at least 10 feet and may move up to double base speed. All movement must be in a straight line, with no backing up allowed...

Hmmm. Without further modifiers, the rules of plain English would mean that "all movement" was refering to "move up to double base movement" in the previous sentence. Refering to anything else would require some form of explanation in that second sentence, like adding the words "in the round" right after "movement."

Let me lay it out better, one step at a time.

1. "All movement must...."

Begs the question "All which movement."

2. With no explanation contained in that sentence we are forced to look to the surrounding text.

3. We find "...up to double base speed." Ah. That must be it. So rephrasing only the movement portion, we get

4. During a charge you may move up to double base speed and all this movement must be in a straight line.

The only other reasonable possibility would be that it "all movement" was in reference to the larger topic - that is, the "Charge" action.

To state that "all movement" means "all movement in the round" is not a logical conclusion form the text [/i]as written[/i]. It is the largest change you could possibly make (short of silly things like "all movement in the entire comabat") to make sense of the words "all movement."

Mind you, I am not saying that the author might not have meant for it to be all movement in the round even if Hasted, but I submit that the text [/]as written[/i] does not support that conclusion.

 

[Storm Raven]

Not end of discussion.

Yep. End of discussion. Your continued yelping doesn't make your case any more compelling.

1. "All movement must...."

Begs the question "All which movement."

Nope. It doesn't. It means all movement. Not "some movement", or "the movement Artoomis wants to count". All means all. End of discussion. You lose.

 

[Artoomis]

Nope. It doesn't. It means all movement. Not "some movement", or "the movement Artoomis wants to count". All means all. End of discussion. You lose. [/B]

All right then, please tell me, then, why "all movement" in the Charge action definition means "all movement in the round" as opposed to "all movement during the charge" or "all movement during the combat."

I stand (well, I am sitting, actually) ready to be convinced if you can come up with a logical argument to back up your case, as I did with mine.

 

[Storm Raven]

All right then, please tell me, then, why "all movement" in the Charge action definition means "all movement in the round" as opposed to "all movement during the charge" or "all movement during the combat."

All means all. It doesn't mean "some".

If it meant what you want it to mean it would have said "all movement during the charge" or "all charging movement". it doesn't. It says "all".

All means all. It doesn't mean "some".