D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 is the REAL reason everyone is angry

[Friadoc]

I don't see why anyone should ever expect a trade-in program, I can understand why some would wish for it, but the only thing it would do is have some goodwill in a customer-base while the company folded.

Seriously, it'd drive them right out of business.

Now, I gotta admit, I'd love to see an edition stability like GURPS had (15 years between 3rd and 4th editions), but 8 years between 3e and 4e isn't too bad, even 3.5 being 5 years ago ain't too bad. It is annoying, though, but it could be worse.

An example:

Vampire the Masquerade went from 1st editon in 1991, to 2nd edition in 1992, to 3rd/Revised Edition in 1998, and then WoD 2.0 (4th) Edition in 2004.

Now after the initial, all be it needed growing pains of the first two editions, they settled into a normal update pattern.

Another Example:

Shadowrun's 1st Edition was in 1989, 2nd Edition in 1992, 3rd in 1998, and 4th in 2005, which is a pretty rapid succession of editions, but the stride lengthened over time.

Now while it is not something any customer likes to hear, no one HAS to buy the update and it is not needed if people just continue in their current campaigns. No one is gonna take the 3.5 books from us, just as they did not take the 3e books, or 2e, or 1e, or oD&D, we just won't get any new books from WotC after they finish the lines they've got in the chute.

Maybe some companies will stay focused on 3.5 and only use it, who knows, but it is not like we HAVE to update to 4e.

I'm going to, mainly because I wanna keep my options open for freelance work and getting my foot in the door, but that's my choice, no one is forcing me to do it.

While in thought and on paper a trade-in policy looks cool, it'd only kill whatever company did it since there is a lot more money involved in it for a printed medium than say an OS CD.

It is just insanely cost prohibative.

 

[Hjorimir]

At least that is what still sticks in MY craw. If there hadn't been -that- revision, which amounted to utterly miniscule changes just three years ago, then I would be much more amenable to the idea of 4th edition. The release of 3.5 not only reeked of profit over common sense (let alone neccessity) but also all but destroyed some 3rd party publishers.

During times like these, I still hold out hope that SURELY Bill Gates played D&D at some point and will just buy the thing and let designers run it for no profit.

Not all of us are angry. In fact, some of us are both excited and happy, of which I'm one. I can't wait for May 08!

 

[GreatLemur]

At least that is what still sticks in MY craw. If there hadn't been -that- revision, which amounted to utterly miniscule changes just three years ago, then I would be much more amenable to the idea of 4th edition. The release of 3.5 not only reeked of profit over common sense (let alone neccessity) but also all but destroyed some 3rd party publishers.

I didn't start playing again until right after 3.5 came out, so I didn't get screwed over the way a lot of folks did, but I am definitely feeling that "Maybe I should just wait for 4.5..." apprehension.

Then again, I think a big part of the whole Digital Initiative is the idea that having an online, constantly-updated edition of the rules will make half editions pretty much unnecessary. And, hell, I refer to d20SRD.org more than my paper PHB, anyway.

 

[Friadoc]

The one that said something along the lines of "we aren't working on 4E" clearly wasn't true.

Actually, it was true.

If the various articles that have been read so far paint a proper picture, the development and design work for 4e has been done for ~1 year, which means no work was done on it.

They're in production and layout now, which in the publishing industry isn't work, but finishing touches.

Also, as WotC has stated for YEARS, they do not talk, nor confirm via talk, products that are not currently in their catalogs or shown as to be released.


They don't do it, they avoid it, and they're very upfront about it. Personally I think using a loaded word like "lie" is inaccurate in this case.

While you're allowed your opinion that they lied about it, I think it's a non-sequitor since it implies a motivation that I don't think WotC intends, which is to mislead and harm it's customer base.

 

[Friadoc]

Not all of us are angry. In fact, some of us are both excited and happy, of which I'm one. I can't wait for May 08!

Me, too.

I'd like to thank WotC for making birthday shopping for me easier next year.

 

[Glyfair]

IConsider Call of Cthulhu; every three years or so they put out a new version that basically consists of altering some fonts, and nobody has a problem with it.

If 3.5 was a new edition that consisted of some altered fonts I don't believe anyone would have cared.

Hero is on its 5th edition.

Except for the jump from 1st to 2nd, I found absolutely no issues with moving between editions.

 

[catsclaw227]

It was like a kick to the teeth without the rubber aftertaste.

I got kicked in the teeth once getting mugged while walking home from a friend's house when I was in college.

the migration from 3.0 to 3.5 didn't feel anything remotely like that.

 

[Khairn]

What's annoying me with the announcement of 4E is the D.I.

I feel like I would have to take a subscription to virtual content on a platform I know nothing about to be able to get the whole package, the complete "deluxe DVD" experience I want. But I got an old computer. What if the platform just doesn't run on my computer? I have to buy a new one too? What if I just don't like to have part of my RPG experience on computer? Etc etc... I know, these things have been said over and over. But whatever people might think of all these fears, unfounded though they may be, I am still feeling very uneasy right now.

After reading the announcements it seems very clear that with 4E and the DI so intimately intertwined with one another that unless you can afford to pay the monthly subscriptionsd and the 1 shot article purchases, that you will only have part of a complete system.

To be able to play D&D 4E, you will require not only the books, but a computer and a paid monthly subscription as well. This is their "vision" for a table top RPG? Sounds like a business model for an MMORPG to me. Oh right ... it is.

 

[Gargauth]

I personally found the fuss over 3.5 bizarre.

I mean, other companies put out new versions every two years or so, with no real ill-will. Consider Call of Cthulhu; every three years or so they put out a new version that basically consists of altering some fonts, and nobody has a problem with it. White Wolf has gone through four versions of their World of Darkness, Hero is on its 5th edition, and you need a supercomputer to keep track of the Traveller editions. Yet for some reason, if a new version of D&D comes out any faster than a decade, people flip out. Go fig.

If I played those games and needed to buy new sets of core books to play the game, I'd have a problem with it. Furthermore, it is somewhat excusable for smaller gaming companies to do this as a means of survival, but Wizards isn't a small gaming company. They spent two years churning out splatbooks for classes and such that they knew would be obsolete within months. If Monte Cook, who wrote the DMG, didn't agree with 3.5, in other words, if the game's original designers didn't suggest it, then who did? Sure some of the changes were fine, such as the Ranger and spell durations, but they weren't needed... and that is a huge distinction for me. My Bill Gates comment is only half in jest... the best publishers, like Necromancer, make no bones about the fact that they really don't turn a profit and I don't think thats a coincidence. As long as people at WOTC who likely don't even play the game are making decisions based purely off of market data, the game will get worse and worse. Please don't feel the need to inform me that "of course profit drives the game" because I am aware of that. I just don't see it as healthy to the quality of the game. What is even sadder is that, for all my moaning, I'll end up buying the damn thing... if that weren't the case, they wouldn't be printing it. No for all the raging right now, 4E will do just fine... WOTC knows their base more than we know ourselves I'll wager.

 

[Glyfair]

While you're allowed your opinion that they lied about it, I think it's a non-sequitor since it implies a motivation that I don't think WotC intends, which is to mislead and harm it's customer base.

We could certainly argue the semantics of "lie" but it really wouldn't change either of our point of view.

However, how could they make statements like "we will make all major D&D announcements at the D&D Xperience," "4th edition is a long way off" and "we are not working on 4th edition" and not think they would be misleading?