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D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Shinobi
- Thread starter moritheil
- Start date
Ferret
Explorer
If nothing else that is a nicely laid out PrC. 
Full points for presentation .
I would say it was pretty much balanced, but I'm not sure. The Jutsus are really good way of handing out abilities. I just afraid that that along with the saves, BAB, and HD it's too much when compared with a Rogue.
Also if you post the PrC here, perhaps within
Full points for presentation .I would say it was pretty much balanced, but I'm not sure. The Jutsus are really good way of handing out abilities. I just afraid that that along with the saves, BAB, and HD it's too much when compared with a Rogue.
Also if you post the PrC here, perhaps within
Code:
tags people will respond to this post.I think the d8 Hit Die is a bit much for a class so focused on deception and staying out of direct combat. Otherwise I think the class is fine as-is. It actually seems much more similar to the Bard than the Rogue.
Instead of the Improved Initiative feat, I'd allow the character to add an additional ability bonus (probably Charisma or Intelligence) to the Initiative rolls. I think giving out a specific General feat is a little bland for a class ability.
Personally, I'd change the Sure Strike ability to a single die of Sneak Attack, since when attacking a flat-footed character it is usually easier to hit anyway. Plus, I don't care for class abilities that are that similar in general. However, that is mostly a taste issue and not one of balance.
Instead of the Improved Initiative feat, I'd allow the character to add an additional ability bonus (probably Charisma or Intelligence) to the Initiative rolls. I think giving out a specific General feat is a little bland for a class ability.
Personally, I'd change the Sure Strike ability to a single die of Sneak Attack, since when attacking a flat-footed character it is usually easier to hit anyway. Plus, I don't care for class abilities that are that similar in general. However, that is mostly a taste issue and not one of balance.
moritheil
First Post
It was originally d6, but then I ran into a bit of a problem: what does the class do? The traditional roles are essentially hitting, tanking, nuking, and healing. The closest role is tanking, but mostly tanking by avoiding getting actually hit, rather than tanking as a barbarian does by soaking up damage. The d6 die doesn't leave much room for leeway, and if you compare a shinobi with a d6 die to, say, an artificer, pre-20, they aren't really very different in melee. The images, utsusemi, and simacrula can only fool the enemy so much. They are going to invariably get hit. The question I asked myself was, "should they be able to take one or two hits?"
I found that the answer was, "Yes, unless I want them to be ultimately useless to their team."
My intent was that they should not be focused on damage at all. Pre-Mastery (and to a lesser extent even post-mastery), they can't deal damage to compete with a rogue, assassin, or other heavy hitter. Heck, they can't even compare with any sort of damage dealing class. They don't even outdamage mages or clerics if the mages use evocations or the clerics use buffs. One or two sneak attack dice are not going to change that. The only real use of sure strike is to deliver poison.
So if that's the case, how do they compare against a barbarian who has DR and rage, and can withstand the same punishment they do by instead just going toe-to-toe with the enemy, AND dish out much more damage while they're at it? Not favorably. There has to be something more given to them to make up for the severe lack of damage.
Pushing the hit dice to d8 was one of the things I did to increase their durability and make up for that. If there's some other way to do it that is more thematic - perhaps increasing the number of mirror images that they can create, or something - I'll consider it.
I found that the answer was, "Yes, unless I want them to be ultimately useless to their team."
My intent was that they should not be focused on damage at all. Pre-Mastery (and to a lesser extent even post-mastery), they can't deal damage to compete with a rogue, assassin, or other heavy hitter. Heck, they can't even compare with any sort of damage dealing class. They don't even outdamage mages or clerics if the mages use evocations or the clerics use buffs. One or two sneak attack dice are not going to change that. The only real use of sure strike is to deliver poison.
So if that's the case, how do they compare against a barbarian who has DR and rage, and can withstand the same punishment they do by instead just going toe-to-toe with the enemy, AND dish out much more damage while they're at it? Not favorably. There has to be something more given to them to make up for the severe lack of damage.
Pushing the hit dice to d8 was one of the things I did to increase their durability and make up for that. If there's some other way to do it that is more thematic - perhaps increasing the number of mirror images that they can create, or something - I'll consider it.
Fieari
Explorer
They generally do. It's usually much easier to read if its right here.
I have read it. First impression is that the level 20 abilities don't seem to be balanced with each other. Is the +1 DC and two more quickened SLAs really the equivelent of getting 10+ ranged attacks per turn? And suddenly gaining unarmed attacks, and really good ones at that, that you've never used before in your life... that seems quite weird to me. I think those lvl 20 abilities could use work.
I have read it. First impression is that the level 20 abilities don't seem to be balanced with each other. Is the +1 DC and two more quickened SLAs really the equivelent of getting 10+ ranged attacks per turn? And suddenly gaining unarmed attacks, and really good ones at that, that you've never used before in your life... that seems quite weird to me. I think those lvl 20 abilities could use work.
Arkhandus
First Post
A cool class, certainly. Where'd you get the Jutsu names, BTW?
The class is definitely a bit more potent than it should be, IMHO. I'd replace the general martial weapon proficiencies with just proficiency in the short sword, and maybe remove Sure Strike. It'd still be kinda too powerful, but I'm not sure what else should be removed...... Perhaps instead, reduce its BAB to poor, but give it Sure Strike at 2nd-level, while giving them Improved Feint as a bonus feat (regardless of prerequisites) at 5th-level. Then maybe give them an ability later, maybe 7th or 11th level, adding their Intelligence modifier or something to their throwing weapon ranged attack rolls out to a distance of 30 feet or so. This might make up for their slight excess of power, without really crippling them in battle (though it would hamper them somewhat, they'd still have good accuracy with Sure Strike + Improved Feint for one melee attack per round). Maybe give them an ability at some level that allows them to feint in combat with the Bluff skill from a distance, the same distance as with their throwing weapon bonus. Maybe.
In any case, regardless of that stuff...... A few of the abilities should probably be shifted around a bit, or broken up a bit. Quick Draw should probably be moved down to 1st-level. I'd suggest switching the levels at which Uncanny Dodge and Trapfinding are gained. Maybe move Trapfinding to 7th-level, Uncanny Dodge to 9th, and Evasion to 11th. Perhaps switch the levels that Improved Initiative and Trapfinding are gained...... And I agree with the other posters, swapping out Improved Initiative for some ability that adds Int mod or Wis mod to Initiative would be more interesting. The Mastery ability should be split up a bit I think; move part of its benefit down to 10th-level, and another part to 17th-level, IMO. I'd put a minor part of the Mastery at 10th, and another minor part at 17th, so it's at least a bit gradual and not such a sudden mastery of some new fighting style.
Mahoujutsu could use a slight boost, while Shurikendo could use a slight weakening; I'd suggest upping Mahoujutsu's DC to +3 instead of +1, since it only affects 2 or 3 abilities anyway; Shurikendo should be limited to shurikens only IMO, otherwise it should instead be reduced to a number of attacks equal to 1/3 shinobi level, rounded up; I'd suggest removing Stunning Fist from Taijutsu, but I'm not sure; maybe just have it function as the normal Stunning Fist feat rather than the monk's improved Stunning Fist usage (monks get more uses per day and I think a higher save DC with it).
If spreading out the Mastery benefits, I'd suggest the following: 10th-level Mahoujutsu would be the 1st extra Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat, 17th-level Mahoujutsu would be the 2nd extra Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat, and 20th-level Mahoujutsu would be +3 to Jutsu DCs; 10th-level Shurikendo would be a number of throwing attacks equal to 1/4 shinobi level, at 3/4 base attack bonus for its throwing attacks, both rounded up, while 17th-level Shurikendo would be the same but at full base attack bonus for each attack, and 20th-level Shurikendo would be 1/3 shinobi level in throwing attacks, rounded up, at full base attack bonus for each attack; 10th-level Taijutsu would be Improved Unarmed Strike and the unarmed strike benefits of a 10th-level monk, while 17th-level Taijutsu would be the unarmed strike benefits of a 15th-level monk, and 20th-level Taijutsu would be unarmed strike benefits of a 20th-level monk, plus Stunning Fist if you keep that.
Them's my opinions, take 'em or leave 'em as you will. {:^D
The class is definitely a bit more potent than it should be, IMHO. I'd replace the general martial weapon proficiencies with just proficiency in the short sword, and maybe remove Sure Strike. It'd still be kinda too powerful, but I'm not sure what else should be removed...... Perhaps instead, reduce its BAB to poor, but give it Sure Strike at 2nd-level, while giving them Improved Feint as a bonus feat (regardless of prerequisites) at 5th-level. Then maybe give them an ability later, maybe 7th or 11th level, adding their Intelligence modifier or something to their throwing weapon ranged attack rolls out to a distance of 30 feet or so. This might make up for their slight excess of power, without really crippling them in battle (though it would hamper them somewhat, they'd still have good accuracy with Sure Strike + Improved Feint for one melee attack per round). Maybe give them an ability at some level that allows them to feint in combat with the Bluff skill from a distance, the same distance as with their throwing weapon bonus. Maybe.
In any case, regardless of that stuff...... A few of the abilities should probably be shifted around a bit, or broken up a bit. Quick Draw should probably be moved down to 1st-level. I'd suggest switching the levels at which Uncanny Dodge and Trapfinding are gained. Maybe move Trapfinding to 7th-level, Uncanny Dodge to 9th, and Evasion to 11th. Perhaps switch the levels that Improved Initiative and Trapfinding are gained...... And I agree with the other posters, swapping out Improved Initiative for some ability that adds Int mod or Wis mod to Initiative would be more interesting. The Mastery ability should be split up a bit I think; move part of its benefit down to 10th-level, and another part to 17th-level, IMO. I'd put a minor part of the Mastery at 10th, and another minor part at 17th, so it's at least a bit gradual and not such a sudden mastery of some new fighting style.
Mahoujutsu could use a slight boost, while Shurikendo could use a slight weakening; I'd suggest upping Mahoujutsu's DC to +3 instead of +1, since it only affects 2 or 3 abilities anyway; Shurikendo should be limited to shurikens only IMO, otherwise it should instead be reduced to a number of attacks equal to 1/3 shinobi level, rounded up; I'd suggest removing Stunning Fist from Taijutsu, but I'm not sure; maybe just have it function as the normal Stunning Fist feat rather than the monk's improved Stunning Fist usage (monks get more uses per day and I think a higher save DC with it).
If spreading out the Mastery benefits, I'd suggest the following: 10th-level Mahoujutsu would be the 1st extra Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat, 17th-level Mahoujutsu would be the 2nd extra Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat, and 20th-level Mahoujutsu would be +3 to Jutsu DCs; 10th-level Shurikendo would be a number of throwing attacks equal to 1/4 shinobi level, at 3/4 base attack bonus for its throwing attacks, both rounded up, while 17th-level Shurikendo would be the same but at full base attack bonus for each attack, and 20th-level Shurikendo would be 1/3 shinobi level in throwing attacks, rounded up, at full base attack bonus for each attack; 10th-level Taijutsu would be Improved Unarmed Strike and the unarmed strike benefits of a 10th-level monk, while 17th-level Taijutsu would be the unarmed strike benefits of a 15th-level monk, and 20th-level Taijutsu would be unarmed strike benefits of a 20th-level monk, plus Stunning Fist if you keep that.
Them's my opinions, take 'em or leave 'em as you will. {:^D
moritheil
First Post
Yeah, a review of the class with the benefit of time between creation and reading suggests that some work is really needed.
I made the names up, aside from those which were nods to existing shinobi lore.
Originally, the 20th level ability was something entirely unremarkable, like Quicken Spell-Like Ability, and then I realized the class had absolutely no damage output. I added the Mahoujutsu option as an expansion of my original concept that they get better at jutsu. Then I asked myself, "What if they don't want to be jutsu-focused?" So of course, I came up with taijutsu, and then shurikendo. I agree that shurikendo is most likely the most messed up one in terms of balance, but taijutsu is not actually, IMHO, imbalanced. You will note that though they gain monk unarmed damage, they do not gain a monk's ability to penetrate DR. This greatly reduces the amount of damage they do with it to legitimate threats (unless they happen to be Outsiders or something), while giving them the ability to mow down fodder.
I made the names up, aside from those which were nods to existing shinobi lore.
Originally, the 20th level ability was something entirely unremarkable, like Quicken Spell-Like Ability, and then I realized the class had absolutely no damage output. I added the Mahoujutsu option as an expansion of my original concept that they get better at jutsu. Then I asked myself, "What if they don't want to be jutsu-focused?" So of course, I came up with taijutsu, and then shurikendo. I agree that shurikendo is most likely the most messed up one in terms of balance, but taijutsu is not actually, IMHO, imbalanced. You will note that though they gain monk unarmed damage, they do not gain a monk's ability to penetrate DR. This greatly reduces the amount of damage they do with it to legitimate threats (unless they happen to be Outsiders or something), while giving them the ability to mow down fodder.
I am still not sure it needs a d8. It does not fit into the "tanker" niche, either. It fits into the sneaker, same as the Rogue. Although the Ninja in general does not HAVE to fit into this sneaker role, in your description that is the ninja you wish to pursue, so stick with it.
IMHO, the class would be even better if it was modular, so you could decide what jutsu to take at what level, with some of course requiring certain levels or another jutsu.
Some of those non-Jutsu abilities need to be moved around, but it seems like you may have been worried about being too front-loaded. Was that the case?
You seem to have done a good job representing all the iconic Ninja abilities (or at least from anime Ninjas) in game terms. Overall, I think the class has potential, but does need work.
IMHO, the class would be even better if it was modular, so you could decide what jutsu to take at what level, with some of course requiring certain levels or another jutsu.
Some of those non-Jutsu abilities need to be moved around, but it seems like you may have been worried about being too front-loaded. Was that the case?
You seem to have done a good job representing all the iconic Ninja abilities (or at least from anime Ninjas) in game terms. Overall, I think the class has potential, but does need work.
Timeron Malachi
First Post
I like the class idea...maybe if the Jutsu's were all spells instead, and were gained as a ranger or paladin might gain spells. You already have a decent spell-list, then you might take a few other spells or abilities that you've seen that you may want there.
Ultimately, what keeps me from actually taking classes like this is inflexability. Not to say that the class can't do more than one thing, just that, in general, three different 20th level Shinobis are all going to have almost the same skills and such.
It seems like Trapfinding at 11th level is sort of late-coming. Maybe if he at least got Evasion before 9th? This looks like the sort of class that would be scouting ahead alot, or even just operating on it's own, so you'd think he'd be better capable of handling traps a little sooner.
I think that the class is definatly do-able, and I'd love to see what you do, if you decide to change it a bit.
Also, I think you did a great job presenting and sort of rounding out an entire 20 level class. Have you ever thought of doing a "real world" ninja? One that gets no magical or supernatural abilities, who's just very sneaky and good at scaring people into thinking he's a demon or something?
I suppose you could make that sort of character with a rogue...
Ultimately, what keeps me from actually taking classes like this is inflexability. Not to say that the class can't do more than one thing, just that, in general, three different 20th level Shinobis are all going to have almost the same skills and such.
It seems like Trapfinding at 11th level is sort of late-coming. Maybe if he at least got Evasion before 9th? This looks like the sort of class that would be scouting ahead alot, or even just operating on it's own, so you'd think he'd be better capable of handling traps a little sooner.
I think that the class is definatly do-able, and I'd love to see what you do, if you decide to change it a bit.
Also, I think you did a great job presenting and sort of rounding out an entire 20 level class. Have you ever thought of doing a "real world" ninja? One that gets no magical or supernatural abilities, who's just very sneaky and good at scaring people into thinking he's a demon or something?
I suppose you could make that sort of character with a rogue...
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